Autotune/pitch shifter question

[Morgan C]

I've just been experimenting with Roland's V-Vocal which came with Sonar 6, used for pitch correction, duration correction (although haven't really worked out how to do this..every harmonised bit on pro CDs the vocals are perfectly in time with each other, does this come from a bit of quantising, or this duration correction which I have no idea how to use, or is it just doing the takes over until they're perfectly in time - doubtful in this day and age) and a couple other things I think. Anyway it sounds really obvious, even if I'm moving notes just half a semitone. I'm not only listening solo'd either, but with some backing (then again..it was just soft strings, not a wall of guitar distortion).

What I'm wondering is if those 'pro' autotuners like Melodyne, etc. actually sound better (significantly better.. I'm a poor 18 year old who cant afford much ;p), if they use different algorithms/etc. or if all autotuners use the same methods.

Then again, I just downloaded Enter Sandman from those Rockband things..holy pitch correction! Guess its easier to hide with distorted guitars and drums, etc. but has anyone had success with softer vocals? Uh..the new song Burn Bright Wry Jackal (not sure who its by, sorry, but it got a massive reception) had a lot of clean vocals which were harmonised, etc. sounded kinda processed and yes, pitch-perfect, but didn't have the artifacts that get produced with a 'lesser' pitch shifter.

 

[Skinny Viking]

"... every harmonised bit on pro CDs the vocals are perfectly in time with each other, does this come from a bit of quantising, or this duration correction which I have no idea how to use, or is it just doing the takes over until they're perfectly in time"

the best and most convincing results you are gonna hear are those where a good singer just nails the harmony correctly and in time to the melody underneath. It can take several tries but if the singer is competent, aware of his/her abilities and well rehearsed thats how you'll get it sounding the best and most natural. Of course there may be a little manipulation involved as well, sometimes the actual performance of the vocal is brilliant but maybe that last note is just a little sharp or the vocal ends in a slightly different place than the melody ... this is where a little nip/tuck can be effective in making it tight but seriously, if you have any control over the tracking phase, make the singer do it over and over until it sounds great with no manipulation. Its no different than getting two intricate guitar parts to work perfect together ... you can probably slice up one track to make every note hit at the same time but nothing beats just nailing it right in the tracking.

Now if you have nothing to do with the tracking and are forced to work with what you have, auto tuning plugins can be great if used sparingly unless you are trying to get an effect from it. As far as actual plugins, I've never done anything with the plug you mentioned, I've only ever used Antares Autotune and now Tune from Waves which I love, although a lot of people use Melodyne and swear by it. Tune and Melodyne seem to be very similar in their abilities and layout as far as I can tell but I haven't used it so someone else should be the one to give you tips on that one but I can say either Antares or the Waves program can go a long way in improving the results you get for those times you must use an autotuner. As for the timing of things, I personally like to do it manually if I must (in PT) and usually its just a matter of soloing out the original vocal and finding the syllable and phrasing breaks in the voice, make your cuts there and move things in slight increments to line it up to the main better. If its a drawn out or held note that is throwing the timing off, solo that part out and listen for the timing of the vibrato (if any), make a cut where you can move the back end back or forward to where the cut will line up in the same "rise/fall" of the vibrato and throw on a crossfade or just nudge it until there is almost no little click or pop.

Hope that helps a little

Cheers!

 

[Skinny Viking]

as a side note to this ... one thing I have always had a problem with when using any auto tune program is when the vocals are harsher. Not death metal or screaming even, just when a vocalist naturally has a good amount of rasp or grit in his voice, especially in the upper registers. For some reason, it always seems to confuse my auto tuner if I try to track it and move it up or down a little. Just as an example, those familiar with Hansi from Blind Guardian, I know he's a brilliant vocalist and I'm almost positive they have the resources and time when tracking to just do a part over and over until its right ... but you know how when he goes into the higher screams, he always has a very scratchy, raspy sound to his voice, even though he is still actually hitting a note. My singer is very similar in that way and because of our limited ($$$) resources I'm forced to just say to him "its sounded awesome but the note was just a little flat, I'll tune it later" ... only to find that I CAN'T tune it because TUNE and even Antares won't read the vocal line properly, sometimes it even thinks it jumps up or down an octave for no reason or simply decides not at all to make a pitch correction line. I've played around with the various controls and always make sure its set up for his range but it still gives me a problem sometimes. Anyone else experience this and could you maybe provide a little insight on how to make it work a little better?

Thanks in advance

Cheers!

 

[grywolf627]

I'm definitely no expert when it comes to pitch correction software. But yeah, I've had times when Autotune can't accurately track the singer for various reasons...usually because of a really wide vibrato, or those in between "blue notes". I've gotten to where I prefer just manually moving things around myself in Melodyne, instead of auto-tracking/correcting with Autotune. On a previous project, before I got Melodyne, and was having these problems, I just grabbed the individual notes and pitch shifted them within Cubase. Damn, I had to reconstruct the melody in some parts because the singer wasn't just going a tad sharp or flat...but singing in major tonalities when it should have been minor. Wish I had Melodyne then! From what I've seen, the new Waves Tune looks a LOT like Melodyne, but I haven't had my hands on it.

 

[Skinny Viking]

I'm definitely no expert when it comes to pitch correction software. But yeah, I've had times when Autotune can't accurately track the singer for various reasons...usually because of a really wide vibrato, or those in between "blue notes". I've gotten to where I prefer just manually moving things around myself in Melodyne, instead of auto-tracking/correcting with Autotune. On a previous project, before I got Melodyne, and was having these problems, I just grabbed the individual notes and pitch shifted them within Cubase. Damn, I had to reconstruct the melody in some parts because the singer wasn't just going a tad sharp or flat...but singing in major tonalities when it should have been minor. Wish I had Melodyne then! From what I've seen, the new Waves Tune looks a LOT like Melodyne, but I haven't had my hands on it.

I do pretty much the same thing in Tune ... the pitch correction line is more of a guide but since it has the piano roll keys I mostly just use those since I know what the notes are supposed to be. Problem is like I was trying to say, sometimes because of the actual vocal itself, even if manually move a spot up or down just a 1/2 step, it won't play it back properly because it couldn't read the note in the 1st place ... I guess maybe its a case of there being more rasp than solid tone in those parts

Even though for cleaner tones I absolutely love waves Tune, with the harsher sounding stuff I find myself sometimes just grabbing the raspy part that is just a little bit off and then pitch shifting it slightly. I know this is a bullshit way of doing it and I usually only will do this if its a backing part or harmony that will sit further back in the mix. I just wish I could spend a couple hours with someone who REALLY has a command of a program like Tune and see how to make it work better for me

 

[grywolf627]

.. I just wish I could spend a couple hours with someone who REALLY has a command of a program like Tune and see how to make it work better for me

You and me, both!

 

[Morgan C]

This is what I mean:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=823851&songID=6825632

1st clip is untuned, 2nd clip is tuned, 3rd clip is tuned up I think 2 semitones and solo'd, so you can properly hear the effect thats going on. Is this 'effect' or type of artifact common to ALL autotuners or pitchshifters etc. Or do more expensive ones like Melodyne and Autotune sound like the proper note is being hit without all the artifacts and chipmunk voice going on?

 

[pifos_2]

This is what I mean:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=823851&songID=6825632

1st clip is untuned, 2nd clip is tuned, 3rd clip is tuned up I think 2 semitones and solo'd, so you can properly hear the effect thats going on. Is this 'effect' or type of artifact common to ALL autotuners or pitchshifters etc. Or do more expensive ones like Melodyne and Autotune sound like the proper note is being hit without all the artifacts and chipmunk voice going on?

Euh from what I tested of a previous version of autotune, if you exagerrate with the effect you get the same kind of result. You have to tweak a lot, and to know how to use itn and I think to understand how does it work.

Speaking of Trevor on the Toxic Grind Machine... He's a great singer thats why it sounds so good. And he records at home by himself so he get the performance like he really wants.

 

[pifos_2]

Then again, I just downloaded Enter Sandman from those Rockband things..holy pitch correction! Guess its easier to hide with distorted guitars and drums, etc. but has anyone had success with softer vocals? Uh..the new song Burn Bright Wry Jackal (not sure who its by, sorry, but it got a massive reception) had a lot of clean vocals which were harmonised, etc. sounded kinda processed and yes, pitch-perfect, but didn't have the artifacts that get produced with a 'lesser' pitch shifter.

BTW I don't hear any tuning there! I don't even think that any autotuning effet or plug-in was available back in 1991 you know...

What you here I think is a strange effect due to the bleed and the gate, plus some reverb and stuff on the voices.

James is just awesome on this track I think.

EDIT : the first release of the Antares Autotune was in 1997...

 

[Skinny Viking]

the tuning in something like autotune/melodyne/tune is a lot less apparent .... usually you have to use the controls to get weird sounds and tones out of it, assuming thats what you want. If not, unless the plugin couldn't read the initial vocal properly to draw a correction line, its pretty damn natural ... you can even adjust the intensity of vibrato or keep the vocals more natural sounding by retuning less perfectly (yes, reTuning, just in case you thought it was a typo)

Cheers!

 

[Andy Sneap]

you never will get a vocal with grit in it to tune great, infact wave tune is probably the best for that, i think its alot better than autotune personally.

 

[Skinny Viking]

you never will get a vocal with grit in it to tune great, infact wave tune is probably the best for that, i think its alot better than autotune personally.

Ok cool, I mean I'm sure there is still a LOT for me to learn in really getting the most out of Tune but its good to hear that its not just me doing something obviously wrong

Aside from that, I also prefer it to antares. Seems the results I do get with it are much more natural sounding and it also seems to allow for greater manipulation without the artifacts

Thanks and Cheers!