Avatar has Marshall branded V30s for $99 each.

[Saculus]

Avatar has Marshall branded V30s for $99 each.

http://avatarspeakers.com/scratch and dent.htm

They have some antiquated frames layout but the offer is in scratch and dent.

 

[Unavailable]

Might just be me, but I can't get a useable overdriven tone from the Marshall branded V30's in my friend's Mode Four cab. Has anyone else had a different experience with them?

 

[Kazrog]

Just a heads-up - V30s along with all other Celestion guitar speakers have been made in China since the mid 90s. It's sad, because the Chinese Celestions sound nothing like the older British ones. Here's a great demonstration of the difference in tone with Chinese and British Celestion Alnico Blues in a Vox AC30:



One of my Recabinet customers sent me this video, and it blew my mind. Totally depressing. This is part of the reason why I am committed to Recabinet - to preserve classic tones as much as possible, since a lot of great gear is no longer being made and will eventually disintegrate!

 

[JeffTD]

Just a heads-up - V30s along with all other Celestion guitar speakers have been made in China since the mid 90s.

This is so totally misleading, though, because Celestion shipped all of their equipment to the factory in China and bought new stuff for the English made speakers - the ones made in China are therefore closer in spec to the old Celestions, in that they're built on the same equipment.

There are differences between all speakers, even of the same make. I've played around with a bunch of chinese and british V30's, and I've had turds from each set, as well as great sounding from each. Comparing single speakers just isn't fair and I'd say on average the Chinese made Celestions are negligibly worse, at best.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

This is so totally misleading, though, because Celestion shipped all of their equipment to the factory in China and bought new stuff for the English made speakers - the ones made in China are therefore closer in spec to the old Celestions, in that they're built on the same equipment.

There are differences between all speakers, even of the same make. I've played around with a bunch of chinese and british V30's, and I've had turds from each set, as well as great sounding from each. Comparing single speakers just isn't fair and I'd say on average the Chinese made Celestions are negligibly worse, at best.

this.
plus it's not fair to compare a 20 year old broken in speaker to a new one anyways

 

[jeid]

This is so totally misleading, though, because Celestion shipped all of their equipment to the factory in China and bought new stuff for the English made speakers - the ones made in China are therefore closer in spec to the old Celestions, in that they're built on the same equipment.

There are differences between all speakers, even of the same make. I've played around with a bunch of chinese and british V30's, and I've had turds from each set, as well as great sounding from each. Comparing single speakers just isn't fair and I'd say on average the Chinese made Celestions are negligibly worse, at best.

True dat.

The people who reckon there's a huge difference are cork sniffers.

 

[nwright]

...and I'll add that I think the Warehouse Veteren 30 clones sound better to me than a Vintage 30 anyway....Well, to me they sound more broken in, like an old Cele does.

 

[Kazrog]

This is so totally misleading, though, because Celestion shipped all of their equipment to the factory in China and bought new stuff for the English made speakers - the ones made in China are therefore closer in spec to the old Celestions, in that they're built on the same equipment.

There are differences between all speakers, even of the same make. I've played around with a bunch of chinese and british V30's, and I've had turds from each set, as well as great sounding from each. Comparing single speakers just isn't fair and I'd say on average the Chinese made Celestions are negligibly worse, at best.

I stand by my comments and by the video - because I myself have also had the opportunity to compare two sets of Alnico Blues in an AC30 to verify this, and this user's video illustrates the issue perfectly. I've also noticed that newer cabs from companies such as Orange, Line 6, Marshall, and Randall sporting V30s sound incredibly harsh and brittle compared to older cabs with V30s.

If nothing else, it just goes to show the radical difference that is possible with Celestions. There is a serious quality control issue here. I was previously aware of everything you said in your post, and it doesn't change the end results. Something is wrong, and there's a lot of people who are unhappy about it.

If M-Audio and Behringer can crank out monitor speakers in China that at least sound consistent from one speaker to the next, why can't Celestion do this with guitar speakers?

 

[Kazrog]

True dat.

The people who reckon there's a huge difference are cork sniffers.

Really? Did you watch the video? The difference is severe and measurable.

 

[nwright]

I think new Vintage 30's have always been noticeably harsher than a nicely aged one.

 

[guitarguru777]

As my dad the vintage enthusiast puts it. ......

The new V30s just aren't as broken in, that's why they sound more harsh. Give them 30 years to age and they will sound the same. Its got nothing to do with quality control.

 

[colonel kurtz]

this thread makes me wanna buy a hellatone from avatar, and put it up against a brand new V30 and check the differences...

 

[Sloan]

pump some club hits through your cab for a week and break that shit in

 

[Kazrog]

As my dad the vintage enthusiast puts it. ......

The new V30s just aren't as broken in, that's why they sound more harsh. Give them 30 years to age and they will sound the same. Its got nothing to do with quality control.

That explains all those harsh, brittle guitar tones on albums from the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Dude, seriously, it doesn't take anywhere near 30 years to break in a speaker. This is madness, and it is a quality control issue. Speaker break-in should only take about 12 hours, and the sonic difference shouldn't be this dramatic before and after.

Small choices in construction can make a big difference. For example, with Shure microphones - take a vintage SM57 (with minimal epoxy holding its components in) vs. a modern SM57 (with the components bathed in epoxy) and check out the sonic difference. In this case, I personally feel both can sound great, but they do sound substantially different. An SM57 and SM58 are the same mic, but the enclosure alone makes a big difference in the sound.

Point is - small choices can make a big difference in sound. Even if they have all the old Celestion factory machines and components in China, there's still a lot of aspects of the construction of the speakers that could have changed. Maybe it's something as simple as glue choice or technique. Maybe these choices make the speakers more "road worthy." I wouldn't doubt that any of these things are possible, but it's purely speculation - in any case, it's clear to me that something is different, and has resulted in substantially inferior sounds, even after the new speakers are broken in.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

As my dad the vintage enthusiast puts it. ......

The new V30s just aren't as broken in, that's why they sound more harsh. Give them 30 years to age and they will sound the same. Its got nothing to do with quality control.

this is the truth.

it's the same materials and the same machines, they're just located in another country.
if QC was the issue the sound would stray into both directions (too harsh, too dull, too quiet, distorted, tear in the membranes...).

 

[Notuern]

This is so totally misleading, though, because Celestion shipped all of their equipment to the factory in China and bought new stuff for the English made speakers - the ones made in China are therefore closer in spec to the old Celestions, in that they're built on the same equipment.

There are differences between all speakers, even of the same make. I've played around with a bunch of chinese and british V30's, and I've had turds from each set, as well as great sounding from each. Comparing single speakers just isn't fair and I'd say on average the Chinese made Celestions are negligibly worse, at best.

Yeah, what people seem to forget as well is that all of these vintage speakers have been played on since the mid 70's.
They've seen allot of temperature and moisture changes, loud volumes for years and overall aging of the materials.

Its not that old speakers sound better, its aged speakers.

 

[Notuern]

That explains all those harsh, brittle guitar tones on albums from the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Dude, seriously, it doesn't take anywhere near 30 years to break in a speaker. This is madness, and it is a quality control issue. Speaker break-in should only take about 12 hours, and the sonic difference shouldn't be this dramatic before and after.

Small choices in construction can make a big difference. For example, with Shure microphones - take a vintage SM57 (with minimal epoxy holding its components in) vs. a modern SM57 (with the components bathed in epoxy) and check out the sonic difference. In this case, I personally feel both can sound great, but they do sound substantially different. An SM57 and SM58 are the same mic, but the enclosure alone makes a big difference in the sound.

Point is - small choices can make a big difference in sound. Even if they have all the old Celestion factory machines and components in China, there's still a lot of aspects of the construction of the speakers that could have changed. Maybe it's something as simple as glue choice or technique. Maybe these choices make the speakers more "road worthy." I wouldn't doubt that any of these things are possible, but it's purely speculation - in any case, it's clear to me that something is different, and has resulted in substantially inferior sounds, even after the new speakers are broken in.

No, the reason why the tones where warm in those days where because you recorded amps inside a normal carpeted room with condensers, all tube preamps, tube eq's, compressors and it was recorded on tape, as opposed to throwing a 57 on the edge of the dustcap in an acoustically dead room recorded through a digital preamp into pro tools.

A speaker never stops breaking in.. NEVER, it constantly changes.
The material in the diaphragm absorbs moisture when you gig it, and when you crank the moist speaker it will flex and absorb dust and whatever thats in the air.
The dustcap gets softer and softer, all the airborne oils the speaker will see over the years will set in the voice coil etc.

Now with that said, my dream rig is a vintage Marshall 1959SLP 67-69 based rig.. but i still dont believe for a moment that the speakers of today are worse then the old ones.

Those small choices you talk about have nothing to do with it in this case, as it already has been explained that Celestion still use the exact same machines and materials.
The manufacturing process has remained the same.

I love vintage gear and tones, but i dont believe for one moment that the actual speakers have gotten any worse.. if anything, i would believe that they are better now days.

 

[Kazrog]

Sure, speakers change their sound over the course of time - they are an instrument with biologically-based components the same way a guitar is. I never said that they stop changing. If anything, after 30 years, a speaker should actually be past its prime and not offer the level of fidelity it once had. Maybe that results in the taming of 10k and up, but how can that also explain a boost in the 2-5k range to make things more musically exciting and less stifled?

To be fair, after all this debate, I'm not 100% certain if any of us is actually correct about any of this, and further investigation and science is the only way to prove claims either way. This is a great topic for further discussion, but requires further information.

I wasn't trying to derail the thread, and I'm sorry if I did. I honestly just wanted to make sure that everyone was getting something they would be happy with. $99 is a great deal but I would hate to see anyone spend $400 to outfit their 4x12 cab enclosure (for example) and be unhappy with the sound they get after all the expense and hard work.

 

[Notuern]

... and not offer the level of fidelity it once had.

Bingo!

Maybe that results in the taming of 10k and up, but how can that also explain a boost in the 2-5k range to make things more musically exciting and less stifled

Well, a speaker is just as dynamic and responsive as a tube.
As the voice coil gets greasy, the diaphragm flexed and the dustcap softer you get a completely different dynamic response out of the speaker.
Depending on where the diaphragm flexes/stretches you will get a change in frequency response between the lows and high mids.
Depending on how soft the dustcap gets you will get a change in harshness/brightness.
Depending on how greasy the voice coil gets you will get a change in responsiveness/dynamics.
Together all of these will make some drastic differences in the speaker, it will even distort in new frequencies.

To be fair, after all this debate, I'm not 100% certain if any of us is actually correct about any of this, and further investigation and science is the only way to prove claims either way. This is a great topic for further discussion, but requires further information.

The only way to know for sure is to find some unused vintage speakers that haven't been exposed to any changes in temperature or moisture, so we are pretty much screwed on that point!

I wasn't trying to derail the thread, and I'm sorry if I did. I honestly just wanted to make sure that everyone was getting something they would be happy with. $99 is a great deal but I would hate to see anyone spend $400 to outfit their 4x12 cab enclosure (for example) and be unhappy with the sound they get after all the expense and hard work.

No problem from my part, discussion is what forums are all about!

Anyways, about 99% of the people on this forum is already using speakers made in the Chinese Celestion factory, so i dont think anyone will regret the buy.
But im not sure if there is anything different with the Marshall branded series though.

 

[JeffTD]

But im not sure if there is anything different with the Marshall branded series though.

They should be a bit darker than your run-of-the-mill V30, and should have a 70W power rating. V30's for Mesa and Marshall have 10w increased power rating, and are brighter/darker (respectively) than the standard V30.