Beauty and Creation

[speed]

I heard this quote last night:

"All great art comes from people who are either ugly or have a terrible inferiority complex. I know no one who is beautiful and produces art."

And I got to thinking, I really know of only a few beautiful people who created anything--be it art, philosophical theories, inventions, etc. I'm not a beautiful person, but I know some beautiful people. I've met and known some beautiful singers and musicians(not those who wrote the music), successful lawyers and businesswomen ; but that's where it ends. None of them ever expressed any desire to create as it were. And as an aside, strangely many of these beautiful people were perhaps more self-conscious of their looks, than average or ugly people (however, self-concious not in thinking they werent beautiful, but in thinking they werent as beautiful as they once were, or should be).

So this is a terribly general idea I'm getting at here (something I'm always guilty of), but it does raise some interesting issues regarding life. It raises questions on how we are affected by our environment and how others perceive us, and how this shapes ones own understand of self. It also questions the underlying psychological nature of creation, invention etc; this inferiority complex, or perhaps using creation/invention/ideas as the validation of the self.

Thoughts?

 

[Arthyron]

I don't know about that. I can think of tons of people that are both beautiful and creative, as well as exercise the means of that creation. I mean, have you ever been to an art school for instance? There are a TON of beautiful people in the art department at most universities, at least in my experience.

But one thing to consider is the nature of "beauty?" It has long been said that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." There is definitely some truth to that. Beauty is not something that is entirely objective, much of it is subjective. So I don't really see any basis for the claim you're positing.

I have, however, seen a similar trend where INTELLIGENCE is concerned. Look at most of the great philosophers both past and present. Not many of them were "lookers." There's also an interesting statistic I saw that generally, fat people are more intelligent than average or thin people. Might have something to do with the fact that they spend their time with intellectual pursuits rather than active ones, I don't know.

 

[judas69]

I think you'll find that there's a greater relationship between the beautiful and the brilliant, than with that of the ugly. Symmetry is a central theme to beauty, and physical development. Thus, how one looks in appearance often reflects the quality of ones genes and underlying potential.

In our society however, if you're labeled a nerd because you look like a nerd, the majority tend to accept this characterization and develop in that field. If you are emotional however, regardless of your own physical appearance, you may develop an affinity towards the arts. Whether or not you spend the time in your area of interest to create or not is entirely up to how you see yourself, the time you have, the training you have etc, and if you enjoy art because of your desire to be beautiful, or you enjoy beauty because it after all, is something ingrained in the minds and hearts of us all.

 

[speed]

Interesting comments thus far.

Indeed, indeed, art schools are full of beautiful men and women. However, I suppose I am thinking of the greats, or even semi-greats in any field. Leonardo was famously beautiful, the rest of the artists, writers, inventors, scientists, etc, I can think of, were not.

Yes, perhaps beauty and creation is a incorrect title. I was trying to get not at beauty and intelligence, but Beauty and creation of something of lasting significance.

I'm unsure of Judas' comments, as to me, intelligence and greatness I dont think has much to do with symmetry--well, not since classical times. If anything, intelligence today is either ultra-specialization, or neuroticism.

Has anyone seen the story about the reconstruction of Dante's face?

 

[MURAI]

I heard this quote last night:

"All great art comes from people who are either ugly or have a terrible inferiority complex. I know no one who is beautiful and produces art."

And I got to thinking, I really know of only a few beautiful people who created anything--be it art, philosophical theories, inventions, etc. I'm not a beautiful person, but I know some beautiful people. I've met and known some beautiful singers and musicians(not those who wrote the music), successful lawyers and businesswomen ; but that's where it ends. None of them ever expressed any desire to create as it were. And as an aside, strangely many of these beautiful people were perhaps more self-conscious of their looks, than average or ugly people (however, self-concious not in thinking they werent beautiful, but in thinking they werent as beautiful as they once were, or should be).

So this is a terribly general idea I'm getting at here (something I'm always guilty of), but it does raise some interesting issues regarding life. It raises questions on how we are affected by our environment and how others perceive us, and how this shapes ones own understand of self. It also questions the underlying psychological nature of creation, invention etc; this inferiority complex, or perhaps using creation/invention/ideas as the validation of the self.

Thoughts?

I think we need to be precise but what we mean by "beauty" here. I think speed is trying to say beautiful as in being balanced and content and not just looks.

Where's that quote from? It reminds me of Thomas Mann's story Tonio Kroger where one character makes the claim that people who compose things such as poetry, paintings, and music have something demented about them. Well composed, adapted people can not do so. Who knows, this seems true. It maybe true that you'll have a strong desire to express and/or create things if you are some what slanted and unbalanced in life. Or you just dont fit in with society in general. Some character qualities considered negative like being "difficult" like stubborn, selfishness, quarrelsome, obsessive and discontent are necessary to a degree to follow through creating new things if you think about it.

Here are some drives behind creation:

1) Making a mark of the self in life. For example, like the custom of the samurai writing poems before death.

2) Desire to escape reality to create and delve into another reality. For example, Nietzsche said those with priest-like temperaments truely dislike life so they try to find refuge by believing in another life in heaven.

3) A secret desire for wide recognition and acceptance in society even when the creator expresses a distate with it. So, vanity in short. Or at least, finding acceptance in a smaller group with those who are like minded with the creator.

4) Desire for convenience and/or utility. I am thinking of most modern inventions today.

5) The drive to change present society because of being discontent with it.

6) Obsession with a certain aspects of life and having to frame it and express it in another context.

7) Experience of sensuality in the process of creation and experiencing the work.

8) The drive to express irrational, strong desires or energies and direct it to the work. This covers emotion, thoughts, energy etc..

9) The drive to achieve and overcome obstacles. This is common in not just inventors or artists but most people to a degree.

That's all I can think of now. By the way, I draw and paint, so I guess I am an artist. Even though, I'm sick of the snooty, pretention that can come with it instead of trying to be the real thing if you know what I mean.

 

[speed]

I think we need to be precise but what we mean by "beauty" here. I think speed is trying to say beautiful as in being balanced and content and not just looks.

Where's that quote from? It reminds me of Thomas Mann's story Tonio Kroger where one character makes the claim that people who compose things such as poetry, paintings, and music have something demented about them. Well composed, adapted people can not do so. Who knows, this seems true. It maybe true that you'll have a strong desire to express and/or create things if you are some what slanted and unbalanced in life. Or you just dont fit in with society in general. Some character qualities considered negative like being "difficult" like stubborn, selfishness, quarrelsome, obsessive and discontent are necessary to a degree to follow through creating new things if you think about it.

Here are some drives behind creation:

1) Making a mark of the self in life. For example, like the custom of the samurai writing poems before death.

2) Desire to escape reality to create and delve into another reality. For example, Nietzsche said those with priest-like temperaments truely dislike life so they try to find refuge by believing in another life in heaven.

3) A secret desire for wide recognition and acceptance in society even when the creator expresses a distate with it. So, vanity in short. Or at least, finding acceptance in a smaller group with those who are like minded with the creator.

4) Desire for convenience and/or utility. I am thinking of most modern inventions today.

5) The drive to change present society because of being discontent with it.

6) Obsession with a certain aspects of life and having to frame it and express it in another context.

7) Experience of sensuality in the process of creation and experiencing the work.

8) The drive to express irrational, strong desires or energies and direct it to the work. This covers emotion, thoughts, energy etc..

9) The drive to achieve and overcome obstacles. This is common in not just inventors or artists but most people to a degree.

That's all I can think of now. By the way, I draw and paint, so I guess I am an artist. Even though, I'm sick of the snooty, pretention that can come with it instead of trying to be the real thing if you know what I mean.

Thats a perfect summation MURAI. Lets build upon it.




Oh, the quote was actually from some art or literature expert--whose name I forgot, and who was quoting someone else--they interviewed in regards to this Dante face nonsense, bringing up Dante's Beatrice inspiration and his supposed iconic unattractive Dante-like face--that mask of a face, hooked thin nose--thats immortalized in art etc. I dont know if anyone was reading the news yesterday or today, but this famous ugly image of Dante was redone, and he looks like he was quite ordinary, and peasant-like.

And yes, Thomas Mann's Death in Venice is all about Beauty and Ugliness; beautiful boy who becomes the object or inspiration, for a ugly pedarastic old writer named Ashcenbach (who was apparently Mann). I cant say I'm a big fan, but its a very very famous book that directly addresses these themes Ive raised.

The theme of beauty is really everywhere in Western culture. As is its opposite, the creator/scientist, who uses his art or mind to catch or create beauty. I mean its a pretty common archetype. I am interested in it, especially as I know a few beautiful people and find their lives--or how they interact with the world everyday--fascinating. I recently dated a very beautiful woman a few months ago, and I was shocked how different people treated her, and me. I noticed how incredibly nice both women and men were towards her, how everyone paid attention, how she innately attracted and knew mostly other beautiful people, and how everyone was suspicious of the copper-headed roman-nosed man with her.

 

[Seditious]

who needs to write a symphony when you can just lift up your top to share beauty.

 

[MURAI]

The following is a good article on artists and scientists by Arnold Ludwig and some theories on how some of them can achieve greatness. I came across his name awhile ago and I believe he's a pretty good academic.

<BASE TARGET="_parent"> <title>Article 200- A Template for Greatness

Dante was a poet and to note Ludwig claims mental illness is the most prevalent in poets of all of the fields of art. The article claims greatness is achieved when the creator suffers physical ailments and illnesses from a young age. It reminded me on how I read Nietzsche had poor health since childhood and he wrote most of his major works while suffering heath problems. Don't you get this health-neurotic sense while reading his works. For example his frequent use of vocabulary like health, sickness, disease, nerve, swamps, worms, body, ripe etc.

On Thomas Mann, I read Tonio Kroger and I felt it was decent but I am going to read Death in Venice soon. Themes on art, beauty and ugliness were also the common themes for the Tonio Kroger one so, I am guessing Death in Venice will be something like that.

You're talking about looks when it comes to women and aren't you going a little off topic? Anyways, on women, let's face it people judge your worth by your looks. I admit I do it. I knew some good looking women who had rather poor personalities, perhaps because everybody treats them so well all the time.

 

[MURAI]

I noticed how incredibly nice both women and men were towards her, how everyone paid attention, how she innately attracted and knew mostly other beautiful people, and how everyone was suspicious of the copper-headed roman-nosed man with her.

It's just that those fucking crackers were envious of you.

 

[speed]

The following is a good article on artists and scientists by Arnold Ludwig and some theories on how some of them can achieve greatness. I came across his name awhile ago and I believe he's a pretty good academic.

<BASE TARGET="_parent"> <title>Article 200- A Template for Greatness

Dante was a poet and to note Ludwig claims mental illness is the most prevalent in poets of all of the fields of art. The article claims greatness is achieved when the creator suffers physical ailments and illnesses from a young age. It reminded me on how I read Nietzsche had poor health since childhood and he wrote most of his major works while suffering heath problems. Don't you get this health-neurotic sense while reading his works. For example his frequent use of vocabulary like health, sickness, disease, nerve, swamps, worms, body, ripe etc.

On Thomas Mann, I read Tonio Kroger and I felt it was decent but I am going to read Death in Venice soon. Themes on art, beauty and ugliness were also the common themes for the Tonio Kroger one so, I am guessing Death in Venice will be something like that.

You're talking about looks when it comes to women and aren't you going a little off topic? Anyways, on women, let's face it people judge your worth by your looks. I admit I do it. I knew some good looking women who had rather poor personalities, perhaps because everybody treats them so well all the time.

Excellent article.

True, I admit, I think of beauty, and women are the first thing that spring to mind. Terribly off-topic!