Best non Ozzy/Dio Black Sabbath album

[Dak]

@Butt: Can you seriously imagine Ozzy on Tyr? Wouldn't even remotely fit. Ozzy categorically sucks, and Dio is just amusing.

Edit: After giving both more listens, I think I'd change my vote to Headless Cross.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Which is hilarious because I don't think Ozzy's is that great either, but just fit the music better than Martin I guess. Dio had the best voice of the three.

Agreed. Ozzy is pretty much all style, but he fits the early records perfectly. Dio was a great singer. Martin is like a heavy metal Michael Bolton.

 

[The Ozzman]

Agreed. Ozzy is pretty much all style, but he fits the early records perfectly. Dio was a great singer. Martin is like a heavy metal Michael Bolton.

My girlfriend prefers Ozzy to Dio and we argue about it all the time because I'm the opposite. We did agree that Ozzy's stage presence and style is better than Dio's, but Dio was the better vocalist.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

Technically, Gillan and RJD were better vocalists but Ozzy is still tops for me when it comes to BS vocalists.

 

[Bloopy]

I voted for The Eternal Idol. The Shining is a pretty good opening track. At times I've preferred Born Again, but Gillan's voice is an even worse fit for the band than Martin's, and I'd rather Martin wasn't there at all.

Glenn Hughes' voice has great character on Seventh Star. I wish he'd done a lot more with the band. The songs are fairly unremarkable, but I still dig listening to it.

Cross Purposes is the worst I reckon. The songs are forgettable and it sounds about as far removed from Black Sabbath as possible. Forbidden is not much better.

 

[The Butt]

I voted for The Eternal Idol. The Shining is a pretty good opening track. At times I've preferred Born Again, but Gillan's voice is an even worse fit for the band than Martin's, and I'd rather Martin wasn't there at all.

Glenn Hughes' voice has great character on Seventh Star. I wish he'd done a lot more with the band. The songs are fairly unremarkable, but I still dig listening to it.

Cross Purposes is the worst I reckon. The songs are forgettable and it sounds about as far removed from Black Sabbath as possible. Forbidden is not much better.

Cross Purposes is pretty decent. Its like Sabotage meets Dehumanizer.

I mean Martin's performance is forgettable but musically its a nice album.

Agreed. Ozzy is pretty much all style, but he fits the early records perfectly. Dio was a great singer. Martin is like a heavy metal Michael Bolton.

Nailed it.

@Butt: Can you seriously imagine Ozzy on Tyr? Wouldn't even remotely fit. Ozzy categorically sucks, and Dio is just amusing.

Edit: After giving both more listens, I think I'd change my vote to Headless Cross.

Yeah, and Martin butchers the Ozzy or Dio tracks. Your point?

Tony Martin is not only NOT the most skilled vocalist Sabbath ever had, but he is also forgettable. He is a typical 80s wailer that could've been replaced by any other 80s wailer of the time and they likely would've been better than him.

Case in point: Listen to the Ray Gillen version of Eternal Idol, then listen to Martin's; your point is void until you do. No contest, Gillen destroys him.

I'm not saying Ozzy is technically better, but he fit best on Sabbaths best material. The live versions of the songs War Pigs, Black Sabbath, Iron Man, Children of the Grave, etc, with Martin are a joke because he sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

[Dak]

Yeah, and Martin butchers the Ozzy or Dio tracks. Your point?

Ozzy and Dio butcher their own terrible tracks, but yeah, Martin's voice doesn't have any business singing "Iron Man". But neither does anyone else.

Tony Martin is not only NOT the most skilled vocalist Sabbath ever had, but he is also forgettable. He is a typical 80s wailer that could've been replaced by any other 80s wailer of the time and they likely would've been better than him.

Case in point: Listen to the Ray Gillen version of Eternal Idol, then listen to Martin's; your point is void until you do. No contest, Gillen destroys him.

Gillen has a higher range. I don't see how that makes him "better". Very Bruce Dickensonish. But I'll agree Martin is replaceable, Gillen would be as well with other singers of the era. That doesn't void my point in any way. You can replace Ozzy with thousands of dive bar drunks in America and Dio with plenty of basement dwellers.

I'm not saying Ozzy is technically better, but he fit best on Sabbaths best material. The live versions of the songs War Pigs, Black Sabbath, Iron Man, Children of the Grave, etc, with Martin are a joke because he sticks out like a sore thumb.

He sticks out like a sore thumb because the songs suck, and decent singing is going to stick out on bad tracks. Gillen wouldn't sound good on those tracks either.

 

[The Butt]

The songs suck? Are you fucking high? Or do you simply take pride on being wrong?

 

[crimsonfloyd]

There are some opinions that are so terrible, they're not worth addressing.

 

[Dak]

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot popularity validates all. Who could possibly be right and disagree with Public Opinion®?

Note that you are so flabbergasted that anyone would not suck the Ozzyfied and Diofied (cwatIdidthur) cock of Black Sabbath that you missed where I agreed with you.

 

[Atomic Tide]

Any love for the live version of Black Sabbath w/ Gillan?

 

[The Butt]

Atomic Tide: Used to enjoy it, it lost a lot of novelty real fast for me though.

Dak: I didn't miss where you agreed with me, I just think the parts where you didn't agree are horseshit.

To reply to your points though:
A) Gillen has more than a wider range. He has more control and better technique. Why do you think Martin fucking blew out his voice around Cross Purposes and Cross Purposes live? Why do you think that live, Martin had to "cut corners" and sing some sections lower, or rewrite entire vocal melodies to fit his quickly-lessening range (Compare Anno Mundi on album to Anno Mundi on Cross Purposes Live. Compare When Death Calls on album, to When Death Calls on "Headless in Vienna '89". Etc.)? The answer, improper technique. This alone invalidates your point that Martin is the best singer Sabbath ever had. Claim he is all you like, but the fact of the matter is that this is simply fucking wrong.

Its okay though. Its everyone's basic human right to be wrong.

B) Ozzy and Dio Sabbath are infinitely more artistically relevant than anything Martin ever sang on.

 

[Dak]

To reply to your points though:
A) Gillen has more than a wider range. He has more control and better technique. Why do you think Martin fucking blew out his voice around Cross Purposes and Cross Purposes live? Why do you think that live, Martin had to "cut corners" and sing some sections lower, or rewrite entire vocal melodies to fit his quickly-lessening range (Compare Anno Mundi on album to Anno Mundi on Cross Purposes Live. Compare When Death Calls on album, to When Death Calls on "Headless in Vienna '89". Etc.)? The answer, improper technique. This alone invalidates your point that Martin is the best singer Sabbath ever had. Claim he is all you like, but the fact of the matter is that this is simply fucking wrong.

Its okay though. Its everyone's basic human right to be wrong.

B) Ozzy and Dio Sabbath are infinitely more artistically relevant than anything Martin ever sang on.

I don't think "best singer" is based on techniques, and apparently neither do you. Who cares about your technique if you have a horrible sounding voice (not that Gillen is horrible)? I'm being up front about the subjectivity of my preference for Martin over Gillen. "Artistically relevant", though, is yet another way of saying "But it's popular!", and you can take that bullshit somewhere else.

 

[The Butt]

Best singer can only be based on a combination of two things:
- How well the singer fits the band
- Technical skill

And since Martin, while he fits his own material good enough, sings on mostly sub-par, trend-hopping material, as opposed to Ozzy and Dio who sang on revolutionary and groundbreaking material (and don't pull that "you only like it because its popular" copout, quit using strawmen to justify your shit tastes).

You outright said Martin was Sabbath's best singer, and since Martin is "best" on neither of these qualifiers, he cannot be considered so.

You are factually wrong. As I said though, its okay to be wrong about something, as long as you at least acknowledge it. Im outtie, good day. :Spin:

 

[Dak]

Martin.... sings on mostly sub-par, trend-hopping material

Ozzy and Dio who sang on revolutionary and groundbreaking material

You are factually wrong.

(and don't pull that "you only like it because its popular" copout, quit using strawmen to justify your shit tastes).

^Speaking of strawmen^: I didn't say you only like it because it's popular. I said your argument regarding its "objective" value is based on an appeal to popularity.

 

[The Butt]

But it's not an appeal to popularity. The Dio and Ozzy eras are both more unique and well-crafted musically. Has nothing to do with popularity.

In the 70s and early 80s, Iommi set the trends. In the mid to late-80s, Iommi started to follow them.

 

[Dak]

But it's not an appeal to popularity. The Dio and Ozzy eras are both more unique and well-crafted musically. Has nothing to do with popularity.

In the 70s and early 80s, Iommi set the trends. In the mid to late-80s, Iommi started to follow them.

I won't argue over the uniqueness of Black Sabbath, because it doesn't really matter. My kids doodles are unique. Special snowflakes they are.

Ozzy held BS back. Some decent riffage in the era but nothing memorable other than that it was early rather than later. I tip my hat to influence without calling it good. Dio was better than Ozzy in a technical way, but his voice just isn't that good, and he had a massive ego to boot.

You say "Iommi followed trends in the late 80s". I say they got out of an outdated rut of used schtick with the emergence of a better voice to work with.

I get that Ozzys terribleness works on a couple of songs, like Crazy Train (which is of course, not BS). I don't see Dio being anything other than amusing. I mean he literally makes me snicker and roll my eyes.

 

[The Butt]

Goddamn you have literally the worst taste in, and opinions about, Sabbath I have ever seen.

In all the people I have encountered that even remotely know the band.

 

[Dak]

Goddamn you have literally the worst taste in, and opinions about, Sabbath I have ever seen.

Objectively, amirite?

 

[The Butt]

:danceboy: