Bliss - do you want it?

[Blowtus]

Ok. Suppose the world has seen substantial technological advance, we comprehensively understand the human brain and we can manipulate it very subtly and powerfully. You have the option of manipulating your own in such a way as to experience a permanent state of bliss, feel no more pain, yada yada.

Do you do it? Why / why not?

I'll post my own thoughts, and why I'm interested, once there is either sufficient response or it has been sufficiently ignored

 

[Seditious]

yep.

same as the 'if you could push a big red button to make everyone in the matrix of bliss, would you do it?' thought experiment. I would... while all the people who're all 'omgz but it's n0t the 0bjective world noooo!! my art will now be w0rthlezz' would try to stop me.

why?---because it is the best possibility I can conceive.

in the vain of Aristotle...
The best thing presently possible is "to die as soon as possible", the thought-experiment scenario is the best thing conceivably possible, but the best thing conceivable "is utterly beyond your reach"... "to have never been born at all".

 

[death metal black metal]

The best thing in life is struggle for something you enjoy. To work toward an end result. The feelings in the meantime are irrelevant. We already have the bliss button, it's called heroin taken with ecstasy, and I can't imagine living that way.

 

[Blowtus]

Modern day drugs don't compare in scope to the question I posed...

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

I don't see how it could be possible that someone could be permanently blissful and still remain the person that they were. It seems to me a lot like suicide. So no. Also it can't be permanent cause the universe itself is gonna go goodnight eventually.

 

[Seditious]

I don't see how it could be possible that someone could be permanently blissful and still remain the person that they were. It seems to me a lot like suicide. So no

That gets right at the heart of things---why do you want to be the person you are?

Also it can't be permanent cause the universe itself is gonna go goodnight eventually.

ugh.
if you go to sleep and die, sure, you can say 'his sleep that night was impermanent' even though he never woke up, that's a linguistic game... as far as he himself, the sleeper, was concerned, it couldn't even conceivably be any more permanent.

If you're happy right now, and someone obliterates your head with a bullet from a sniper rifle... you're not "permanently happy" but you fuckin know what it means---you'll never be unhappy again

dunno why you'd even bother to raise such a trivial dig at his phrasing.

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Why not be the person I am? To me the everyone is totally happy through brain manipulation thing is a horrifying idea. Good point on the heat death thing, that was totally silly. Most transhumanist proposals of this sort include immortality.

 

[Blowtus]

If you're happy right now, and someone obliterates your head with a bullet from a sniper rifle... you're not "permanently happy" but you fuckin know what it means---you'll never be unhappy again

dunno why you'd even bother to raise such a trivial dig at his phrasing.

Mmm I think it is a fair question. It is not really the end result that is the issue here, it is the initial decision. Lets just state that you will live the same length of time for either choice to remove that issue...


I do agree with you that it seems functionally quite close to death - I would never elect for either. I couldn't see the point I guess. Why this is I'm not entirely sure, the best explanation I have is this: Attachment to my concept of 'I' (perhaps even a broader attachment to my concept of 'universe' or 'existence'?) is greater than the desire for 'I' to not suffer. Perhaps there is even a desire for 'I' to suffer, to experience.

I think election for bliss is one that could be seen to 'make sense' given our modern day rationalised spiritual emptiness of sorts, our 'commodification of life', (as Nile put it in some other thread) but I think there is something in most that would reject it... sheer muddle-headedness, the sense of something greater, both, neither?

I find the question interesting because it forces us to consider what we really want, and why we want it.

 

[Blowtus]

Seditious - why would dying from a state of bliss be better than dying otherwise? If death is so great, what are you doing just sitting here talking to us?

 

[Seditious]

why would dying from a state of bliss be better than dying otherwise?

'from'? no. 'in'.
if you have the choice between 'being happy' and 'being unhappy' what do you choose?---if you don't want to be unhappy til the day you die then obviously being happy until the point you die is preferable... death is merely the end of the last breath of life, and every other breath you're striving for this, so why would you want anything else in that last breath?

If death is so great

I never said death was great, it's "a mere nothing" as Marcus Aurelius put it.

If death is so great, what are you doing just sitting here talking to us?

Here I'd direct you toward Schopenhauer, and simply say I do have a will to live... if a million dollars is so great why aren't I holding a gun to the head of a millionaire right now?---because I'd be pained to do it... it's so much easier to not will, to be like a depressed person, rather than have the will to live or the will to kill yourself.

 

[Seditious]

Why not be the person I am?

seemed like a valid enough question... a lot of people would rather be other than they are now, because they can conceive of their life being better than it is---no longer needing to work toward anything you don't want to, banging Jessica Alba, looking more attractive, never feeling sick or injured again, etc.

and if you can think of a better life you could have, what about the present life is so good that it's too valuable to be worth trading in to get that the life which is 'everything you could ever want'? (what is it you want?---see, me, I simply suppose that whatever 'thing' you say you want is merely a thing (very much like Aristotle). so to say 'I want to be famous', to me, it would be silly to say 'I'd rather not be famous, and continue to be 'who I am'---this person wanting fame---than someone who feels all the benefits that I imagine fame would bring me, but not actually be famous'. It seems to me a gross missing of the point.)

To me the everyone is totally happy through brain manipulation thing is a horrifying idea.

to a lot of people, apparently.

how come, for you?

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

As for my own life, of course I'd like to be better looking, screw Jessica Alba, be impervious to injury etc., but I have to go with the cheesy answer and say that there are people in my life that I wouldn't want to live without.
As for the absolute happiness thing, something about it seems like I would be trapped in a chair with my lips pulled into a smile by hooks, staring at an infinite wallpaper of happy faces. Having to be perfectly happy as a result of tampering with the brain, regardless of goings on in my environment, seems like it would be equivalent to a lobotomy. Ironically I wouldn't want to be artificially blissful because I would want the autonomy to confront negative situations in order to make myself happy. I actually agree with DMBM that struggle is a virture. I'm no philosopher, by the way.

 

[Seditious]

I have to go with the cheesy answer and say that there are people in my life that I wouldn't want to live without.

and when they're no longer a part of your life... as happens in the course of one's long life?

Having to be perfectly happy as a result of tampering with the brain, regardless of goings on in my environment, seems like it would be equivalent to a lobotomy.

lobotomy, prozac, marajuana, buddhism... sure. we all alter our brain chemistry in one way or another... I too would prefer something less invasive, but I don't see any valid reason for a bias. I'm sure you're not against the principle of tampering with the brain when in the form of something liek cognitive behavioral therapy.

Ironically I wouldn't want to be artificially blissful.

you at present don't want to be, but you can't say you 'wouldn't want to be', as part of 'bliss' would be a lack of concern that 'it was brought about artificially' when you're there.

Ironically I wouldn't want to be artificially blissful because I would want the autonomy to confront negative situations in order to make myself happy.

why do you want to confront negative situations in order to make yourself happy?

I actually agree with DMBM that struggle is a virtue.

me too... in our world violence is also a virtue. but I'm not concerned with what's a virtue, rather, if anything, with what the virtues are good for.

 

[SouthernTrendkill]

Of course I would.

Some people would rather feel pain than nothing at all. I would rather feel nothing at all than feel even a tiny bit of pain. That is my answer.

The idea that pain and suffering are necessary to a happy life... that is a farce imposed upon us so that we will keep working and doing shit we hate. To sustain society.

 

[Silver Incubus]

Why would I rely on technology to make myself happy when I have everything in my brain that can do it for free?
I can make myself feel great in an instant, just like anyone else can.

 

[Blowtus]

Why would I rely on technology to make myself happy when I have everything in my brain that can do it for free?
I can make myself feel great in an instant, just like anyone else can.

So your feelings are entirely conscious decisions? Sorry, but I don't think the rest of us are quite that advanced... I'm sure not.

 

[Silver Incubus]

So your feelings are entirely conscious decisions? Sorry, but I don't think the rest of us are quite that advanced... I'm sure not.

I tried to explain NLP to everyone a while ago, but it simply is designing your brain to function the way you want. Well NLP and Hypnosis, and the offshoot Design Human Engineering.

Hell Its as simple as anchoring a memory that creates the feeling you want. So remember a time when you were giggling or laughing and everytime you looked at that person you laughed even more. Then find where that feeling starts, move it along your midline so that its a continuous loop and spin it faster and faster. Also, being very greatful will put your mind in a better mood.

 

[Seditious]

So your feelings are entirely conscious decisions? Sorry, but I don't think the rest of us are quite that advanced... I'm sure not.

lol word.
fuck that reminds me, I have to finish reading the last couple chapters of Stranger in a Strange Land

 

[Seditious]

Of course I would.

Some people would rather feel pain than nothing at all. I would rather feel nothing at all than feel even a tiny bit of pain. That is my answer.

The idea that pain and suffering are necessary to a happy life... that is a farce imposed upon us so that we will keep working and doing shit we hate. To sustain society.

always nice to see another like mind on the board.

 

[Seditious]

I tried to explain NLP to everyone a while ago, but it simply is designing your brain to function the way you want. Well NLP and Hypnosis, and the offshoot Design Human Engineering.

Hell Its as simple as anchoring a memory that creates the feeling you want. So remember a time when you were giggling or laughing and everytime you looked at that person you laughed even more. Then find where that feeling starts, move it along your midline so that its a continuous loop and spin it faster and faster. Also, being very greatful will put your mind in a better mood.

it's false advertising to say NLP can do any of this "in an instant".

What brought you to this board today? were you not happy enough with your life to add nothing more to it?---surely you didn't come here to become unhappy or ruin how good you were feeling, so presumably you thought of it as a tool to obtaining something that you would enjoy having...

why didn't you just anchor the memory of another time you visited this board rather than waste your time manufacturing a new experience?

the fact is, whatever the brain is capable of, people are for the most point far too lazy for... yes you can orgasm with the power of the mind, yes you can feel good without alcohol or chocolate, or resolve boredom and loneliness without reading or chatting on a forum, but people prefer to take these shortcuts, presumably because they're 'easier' or 'faster' than the instant cognitive tactics of NLP.