Bogner Überschall VS Podfarm w impulses // rate please

[Lasse Lammert]

id love to do a comparison between

a miced recto against the modelled axe fx pre/powerampsection with an impulse taken from that sepcific session.

could be an eye opener to what has to be perfected in this whole process and what is really annoying about impulses (because we all know
no one can actually name exactly whats wrong with impulses/modellers)

well, they would be REALLY close, and probably noone could tell which one's real and which one is modelled.
that test would miss the point though, cause someone moved that mic in front of the cab etc to get the best possible tone....so even if real and axe sound the same later the tone still comes from "micing the cab"---in the real world.

so to get the good and unique tones you'd have to mic a cab and take an impulse for every recording=not much difference to micing a cab.
if you use a new impulse and mic it especially for that recording it wouldn't really have any of the advantages of modelling (but all the disadvantages).

all the nuances you're capturing, you get from the "real world micing", not from the modelling.

 

[gabriel g.]

the thing is, a real cab reacts different then the impuls responce. If you make the impuls responce you use the cab as an LINEAR-SYSTEM. But the cab isnt linear....but yeah a cab is close to a linear system....thats why impulses work that "great"...

 

[ScootBaloo]

man this makes me feel weird ;-)
of course tone is soo subjective, and i honsetly still prefer the real bogner as lasse knows his stuff,
i would have never gotten close to his sound with mmy shitty skills.
but i know podfarm in and out, and i just wanted to test, whether there is really something
in digital amps that turns people of (as some people say, and i believed that till today as well...).

this test once again shows me : its really alll too subjective. there is no "digital" sound . if there is, we mistake digital as clear.

[ A BOGNER ---------- B PODFARM ]

this is weird.... congrats to guitarhacks for thes great impulses, they are still some of the best available. this again shows one thing : if it sounds good, it sounds good. whether the real deal or simulations. (nice because my axe fx cost me 2100 euros hehe)

i will post more tests. also including the axe fx.

so whatdoo you guys say ?? ;-)

Woops, sure shows I dont know my stuff !!

 

[dcb]

well, they would be REALLY close, and probably noone could tell which one's real and which one is modelled.
that test would miss the point though, cause someone moved that mic in front of the cab etc to get the best possible tone....so even if real and axe sound the same later the tone still comes from "micing the cab"---in the real world.

i remember jocke did exaclty this for meshuggah and clawfinger,
micing his setup, doing an impulse and use that sound live.

i also prefer modelled tones because of major improvements of sound in a live context, not having to destroy peoples ears with a cranked amp. (i never liked LOUD, thats because as a kid i plugged into a marshall amp, turned it up THAN turned the amp on and THAN started hitting the strings.
i almost collapsed, because i was soo shocked, that there was something THAT loud in this world when i played my first note through that amp.
traumatic.

haha, so to me thats the big advantage : sure someone has to do the work
beforehand, but someone had to build the mic and the preamp and invent computers, wire the cables etc. ;-) just because there is mics all over, they are still selling and people (little children in wherever) have to build them...every mic adds different flavor. same with impulses.
but once you have something great, you can use that over and over. that is a big advantage. if i mic up my amp, next day it might sound completely different because someone knocked the mic.

i would love to focus on making music rather than wasting my days moving a mic one milimeter for "thA sound". but thats me saying this as a musician. in no way would i say this erases the producer/enigneer.


and as jocke said once : its hard for people to believe that an ugly box like this could ever sound better than. i think were all hearing music more with our eyes today, that is the biggest problem.

 

[Jevil]

I am a great defender of new technologies like amp sims, I use them a lot, Pods, Plugins... very easy to use, no isolated room needed, cheap...

...but today 21th May 2010, still no amp sim can beat a well miced real amp-cab.... they are fucking close though!

 

[dcb]

I am a great defender of new technologies like amp sims, I use them a lot, Pods, Plugins... very easy to use, no isolated room needed, cheap...

...but today 21th May 2010, still no amp sim can beat a well miced real amp-cab.... they are fucking close though!

well i actually think that there is no winner. the only thing i take from this is that the whole discussion about modellers vs real amp leads to nothing.
its just soo subjective, there can never be a "this is better". its all imagination.

do they sound differently?

yes. but i think with the axe i will nail the tone 100%.
hope i will find the time for this....

is a better than b or vice versa?

thats up to you.
but i think the whole : "this sounds digital" debate is outdated and to me this is proof.

 

[Jaekae]

A sounded real, i find that plugin amps sound "plastic", like its fake, soo hard to explain, in the last 4 sec of the clip you definitely hear the difference of real and plugin

 

[onqel]

ongel! welcome man. still in love with the tsx !!!
so which one do you prefer ? if you say B is podfarm,
i take you like A more ?
btw. im not gonna spill the beans yet! ;-)

I liked A the most. The palm mutes on B have no attack compared to A, so the Pod actually turned itself in haha
the main difference between an "standard" ampsim and a real amp lies within the dynamics. A real amp is complete from the inputjack to the output, but an ampsim is usually blocks or pieces put together which doesn't really react to eachother(backwards in the chain).. When ampsim modelers starts to model their sims like real amps actually behave, the quality on them will go up for sure(!)
I agree on the cab emulation(impulses) being the bottleneck, at least in the near future.
Cabinets have a non-linear section.. there's a paper on a V30 speaker/Engl combo cabinet emulation just waiting for someone to model into a vst

 

[EETFUK]

I would not know to say what is the real...
my opinion:

a - real
b - farm

and i prefer A.

same here

 

[theBlackLOBSTERmurder]

I guessed that B was the sim. It`s pretty pretty easy to recognize. you don`t have to compare the lows, highs etc. , this is not going to give you the correct answer.
It`s about the dynamics and "3d-sound effect". Listen closely first to A, then B. You`ll notice A is much more dynamic, and you can imagine yourself playing it with an amp. Now if you take impulses, soundwise it can be great (in this example, I find that B sounds better, because its tighter than A), but there are no dynamics..., no "feeling" to it.

The thing is, I`ve recorded an album, with a great tone, thanks to guitar hacks impulses. but the guitars just don`t sound as "real" and punchy as if they we`re miced.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

It`s about the dynamics and "3d-sound effect".

this is how I hear it.
ream amps sound more 3d and have way more depth than sims IMO.
that again leads to a mix with more depth and space, whereas ampsims always make a mix sound 2-dimensional

 

[AboutBlank]

I love sliding mics in front of the cab!

For me it would be totally "uncool" to scroll thru 1000 patches and stuff like that.

Love the feeling(even visual) to crank a real amp and slide the mic and dial in some potis, a long road but it's fun too.

 

[dcb]

I guessed that B was the sim. It`s pretty pretty easy to recognize.

if it was everyone would have guessed right from the start. ;-)
my next tests will have moore options, erasing the 50/50 chances and all ;-)

 

[crillemannen]

It was pretty easy to recognize the real amp. As people has said above the amp sim lacks something that the real amp don't.

 

[lolzgreg]

I know I'm late, but I definitely liked A best.

To me, B sounded like a poorly mic'd amp, and A sounded like a well mic'd amp. I suppose I don't like impulses much, hence why I'll never use them.

I have come to the conclusion that the speaker cabinet/micing is the most important part of the guitar tone chain. You could run a Crate head with a Boss Metal Zone into a Rectifier 4x12 and get a much superior tone to running a Dual Rectifier into a Crate 4x12.

 

[HandsOfDespair]

if it was everyone would have guessed right from the start. ;-)
my next tests will have moore options, erasing the 50/50 chances and all ;-)

Looking forward to it! I love tests like these haha.

 

[Proggm]

Cool thing is most people preferred "A", so real amp still wins. Though I think the ampsim version could be much better.

 

[dcb]

Cool thing is most people preferred "A", so real amp still wins. Though I think the ampsim version could be much better.

yeah the amspim version is still weak.

the first 5 posts all preferred podfarm ;-)
i think if i told people A was Bogner - people went : i like A better
and vice versa...

what we like more is not necesarrilly what we REALLY like more...
this all has so much to do with labeling things "analogue" and stuff.

also i was pretty shocked about this comment :

>>>
A is podfarm and B is real.
To me A just sounds too digital and fake, cab sims and impules just don't do it for me. I much prefer the warmth of the analog sound, the shape of the spectrum just sounds better.
>>

its all so subjective.

 

[nwright]

I picked B as PODfarm, A as the Bogner. To me, aside from the harsh high mids or highs on a modeler, there is also a thuddy low mid tone to them, and it seems to get worse with impulses. Since these were untouched EQ wise, it made me think B was the PODfarm since the low mids were "thuddy" for lack of a better description.

 

[Niilz]

Ok - here's the guy who played that sh*t:

Danny asked me and so I answer:

A and B sound good but not amazing and I do not care which track is which amp or amp-simulation device...

Everything I want is good songs and a great mix!
So it does not matter how the tracks are created if they fit into the
context of the mix (and the music!) and therefore I - as a guitar player - can identify with the sound.

No offense, but I do not see the sense in this rate my guitar tone thread, since the tracks are totally contextless if you post'em without the bass, drums, synths/fxs and vocal tracks in a mix.

@Danny: If you'd post "THAT" quad-tracking sound with two recto tracks and two bogner tracks which Lasse created with/for me when I was in his studio (in a mix!!!) I'd definitively like it better than both sample tracks.
Where's the Dual(-Channel) Rectifier? ;-)


Besides, why do you post my crappy playing in a forum? ...LOL