CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
Well that's another thing, these hate crime stats are probably swollen with loosely defined incidents.
brexit
- Thread starter arg
- Start date
Well, it has. But i'm guessing you mean a proportionate system. So no. The country is, despite the bs claims that britain is 'naturally' conservative, rather evenly split if you look at the vote numbers. And a fair few ukip voters are left wing anyway. It would mean coalitions and more people being represented by MPs with beliefs closer to their own. It would mean an end to situations like we have now, where a party with 36% of the vote, voted for by 24% of the electorate, gets to form a 'majority' government. As someone that views democracy as the least bad form of government, that has noticed that many of the better countries of the world use this system, i think it would be an improvement.
Dak
mentat
Einherjar86
Active Member
The problem isn't my definition of "necessary" - I see that as rather obvious.
The problem is that you perceive the EU as siphoning power, as though it absorbs the magical sovereignty of individual nations to increase its own "super state" existence. This is kind of funny, to be honest.
The EU is necessary for the same reason any mediating system (language, currency, etc.) is necessary. It's simply an effect of complexity. That's not to say we couldn't dismantle it and handle geopolitical interactions on a case-by-case basis... but I guarantee you that something similar to the EU would simply appear in its place.
I wonder if Britons realize that the Swiss and the Norwegians also have to pay EU fees in order to transact with its nations, that they have to abide by EU laws... If the UK left in order to get away from those things, I'm finding it difficult to see how they could negotiate "respectable" deals. And if they do, then why the hell did they leave in the first place?
- Jun 4, 2008
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Forcing a country to accept immigrants it does not need or want reduces its sovereignty. So does denying it the ability to deport immigrant criminals
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...enders-cannot-deported-EU-open-borders-Brexit
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/67...enders-cannot-deported-EU-open-borders-Brexit
Lunella
☽❤☪
Dak
mentat
As per the official EU page oriented towards US info seekers:
http://www.euintheus.org/who-we-are/what-is-the-european-union/
Of course it also says it "isn't a government". This is kind of funny, to be honest.
Einherjar86
Active Member
You know what I think is funny? That you feel my own theoretical understanding of what the EU is/does would line up with the purported claims of those who are part of it. They even use the word sovereignty - obviously I feel no desire to substantiate their claims. My analysis is my own, not the borrowed explanation(s) of a bunch of sentimental humanitarians.
Dak
mentat
Well private analyses are fine. But when an organization describes itself as requiring the surrender of sovereignty, and certain groups decide they wish to keep such sovereignty, there's something being described here - some sort of exchange, transmission, etc. You can't deride only the one side for not coming to a contractual agreement because of agreed upon terms/terminology between those potentially contracting sides.
Einherjar86
Active Member
My argument has never been one of derision toward, specifically, the act of leaving the EU. My argument has consisted of two points:
1. The necessity of some kind of abstract organization like the EU.
2. The ridiculousness of the argument used by the Leave campaign.
Those are my objects of critique. As far as the act of leaving goes, I couldn't care much less. Obviously there are impacts here in the U.S., but that's not really my concern.
Dak
mentat
I don't see the need for EU-like supra-states. It isn't really abstract as it has physical locations, a parliament, central bank, etc.
Regional non-aggression pacts don't need a standing parliament and central bank. The Euro trade bloc has served to enrich a couple of countries at the expense of several of the others, so I don't see where putting them all under a single currency is a necessity.
The US has signed several multination trade deals which, regardless of how you view their necessity or success in terms of economic benefit, have functionee successfully without a suprastate organization overseeing them (aside from the UN).
Regional non-aggression pacts don't need a standing parliament and central bank. The Euro trade bloc has served to enrich a couple of countries at the expense of several of the others, so I don't see where putting them all under a single currency is a necessity.
The US has signed several multination trade deals which, regardless of how you view their necessity or success in terms of economic benefit, have functionee successfully without a suprastate organization overseeing them (aside from the UN).
Einherjar86
Active Member
I'm not saying the EU is abstract. I'm saying it is one manifestation of an abstract type.
When I say "necessary," I mean that international relations inevitably spawn these kinds of organizations, more than just the EU. I don't mean that there is an ethical necessity to create such entities - I mean that they simply emerge as an effect of geopolitical structure.
Dak
mentat
Or do they emerge merely as a necessary result of a certain ideology? I'd easily agree with that.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Dak
mentat
Dak
mentat
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
The Ozzman
Melted by feels
Einherjar86
Active Member
A phenomenal speaker? Meh, I don't think so. He's certainly a good speaker.
I am sorry though, there's no way that Farage is a better speaker than Obama, especially if we're talking about the early '00s and the first term of his presidency.
I am sorry though, there's no way that Farage is a better speaker than Obama, especially if we're talking about the early '00s and the first term of his presidency.
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