Can somebody help me out please? :)

[Insilden_The Shred]

Well hello to all the regulars here... I'm totally new to the world of Andy Sneap, but I have a problem I can't figure out and I've occasionally read through some threads here and I've gotten the impression that people here know what they're talking about. If you could lend an ear for a few minutes it would be greatly appreciated.

Anyway... Its a problem concerning tuning. Recently I've been jamming along a lot with Iron Maiden and a few old Metallica tracks and I've noticed that apparently there are a few tracks that arn't in a perfect 440 standard E tuning. I'll put on Master Of Puppets for example tuned to 440 and it will be in tune and then if I play Creeping Death still in the exact same tuning and I am flat, as much as a 1/4 step. I've also noticed this with Iron Maiden tunes. I have 3 different tuners that all tell me that I'm tuned correctly to. There has to be a logical reason for or why this is happening but I can't or don't have the knowledge to figure it out and I can't really see a band doing this on purpose. I have thought of almost everything from strings to my actual guitars/equip. but concluded if it was any of these things then it would effect everything. So there is no reason why I'd be in tune with a bunch of songs, then randomly flat for another. I've even tuned up to the appropriate pitch to play along to these particular tracks and have gone back to the others that were fine in 440 and then they are out. I've even tried playing the cds in different cd players to rule out the possibilty that its the cd player itself and also went back to the original albums in the case that the song was on a burnt disc to no avail. Oh, and one last thing... this also isn't just specific to a particular album. There are songs on the same album that share this conflict.

Sorry to have gone on, but this is bothering me quite a bit and any help or insight will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Or... I could just be living in the nexus of the universe.

 

[Sinister Mephisto]

Now I could be wrong, but here's what I think.

On older CDs bands didn't tune to tuners as much. They tuned to an out of tune piano in the studio, or eachother. You're not doing something wrong, it's just that Iron Maiden wasn't concerend with being in exactly 440.

 

[Insilden_The Shred]

haha thanx... its just a pain in the ass when I feel like jammin all the Maiden tunes I know and have to tune like a micro step higher just to be in tune with one or two. Well its not really a pain in the ass. I just won't do it.

Its not something I could let slide if I was in a band that big or any band for that matter. I am far to particular and I guess I assume others are or should be aswell.

 

[mts1979]

...is that back in the day when bands recorded to an actual reel of tape, the speed of that tape playing back may have been slightly inconsistent, resulting in the problem you've noted.

I've also heard of bands (again, pre-digital recording) speeding up master tapes slightly to make their music sound tighter and/or help cover up mistakes and out of tune parts.

I've noticed that exact problem myself. I used to jam along with "Ride The Lightning" a lot, but some parts of that album are almost a half-step sharp, and it's too annoying to keep tuning to it.

 

[kev]

Its a tape issue dude- also, try this. Take a recording you know is fine to play along to, and tape it yourself (from cd to casette) you'll notice now that when you try to play along with the casette the same problem you will get

I think the same thing goes with a lot of pantera stuff, but by all accounts, they just couldnt be fucked to tune perfectly? Or is that just another fascia- like i remember dime saying i never practice, and all i know are the major and minor scales etc.

 

[Sinister Mephisto]

Ahhh, the tape thing sounds right.

Dime and Rex always tuned a a 1/4 step flat. Why? Just to be different.

 

[Carrier Flux]

if you have some spare time on your hands you could rip those albums to .wavs and shift the pitch by a few cents in soundforge or whatever so they're in tune with your guitar. makes more sense than retuning your guitar all the time.

 

[kev]

if you have some spare time on your hands you could rip those albums to .wavs and shift the pitch by a few cents in soundforge or whatever so they're in tune with your guitar. makes more sense than retuning your guitar all the time.

thats a plan

 

[Insilden_The Shred]

if you have some spare time on your hands you could rip those albums to .wavs and shift the pitch by a few cents in soundforge or whatever so they're in tune with your guitar. makes more sense than retuning your guitar all the time.

Thanx, that's a great idea actually. I thought perhaps it could be a reel/tape issue... That is probably exactly what it is now that I think more about it.

and for a prior comment, Ride The Lighning is soooo horrible for this.

Well thanks a lot for all the help much appreciated.

 

[metalkingdom]

...is that back in the day when bands recorded to an actual reel of tape, the speed of that tape playing back may have been slightly inconsistent, resulting in the problem you've noted.

I've also heard of bands (again, pre-digital recording) speeding up master tapes slightly to make their music sound tighter and/or help cover up mistakes and out of tune parts.

The speeding up (or slowing down) thing on tape machines is called "Vari-Speed". I've never used or seen it used for anything other than just pepping the song up ever so slightly.

You know, "slightly inconsistent" playback would not incur a 1/4 step pitch difference. Besides, pretty much all of the music you're talking about here was recorded on Studer's and other high-end decks, so "inconsistency" is probably not an issue.

I think that it's more of just a random thing.

 

[wankerness]

Ahhh, the tape thing sounds right.

Dime and Rex always tuned a a 1/4 step flat. Why? Just to be different.

Maybe it was the cool metal thing to do at the time or something, a few of the early Megadeth albums (well, PSBWB for sure anyway) were also tuned down a fourth step. Idiotic imho

 

[Skaldir]

Maybe it was the cool metal thing to do at the time or something, a few of the early Megadeth albums (well, PSBWB for sure anyway) were also tuned down a fourth step. Idiotic imho

Why is it idiotic? Maybe it was perfect for their string tension.
The question is, why should everyone tune standard 440 hz? What's the benefit?
Over a few hundret years Orchestras tuned from somewhere 438 to 443, because the sound is different. I think it's more important to go for sound as for an even number.

 

[carl@laruso.com]

The speeding up (or slowing down) thing on tape machines is called "Vari-Speed". I've never used or seen it used for anything other than just pepping the song up ever so slightly.

I sometimes vari-speed (well i use a pitch shift plugg) accross the main stereo bus of a track and drop by a quater tone if a singer cant get a note turn it off, shift the take up by 1/4 tone and sounds perfect! any more and your pushing it.... but yeah definate by product of vari-speed on tape machines

C

 

[metalkingdom]

I sometimes vari-speed (well i use a pitch shift plugg) accross the main stereo bus of a track and drop by a quater tone if a singer cant get a note turn it off, shift the take up by 1/4 tone and sounds perfect! any more and your pushing it.... but yeah definate by product of vari-speed on tape machines

Why not just use auto tune?

 

[kev]

Why not just use auto tune?

thats what i thought but it lets the singer work to the track more

 

[Andy Sneap]

i know alot of albums back in the day, use to get slowed down for singers to hit various high notes. We've been cheating since day one lol. I know stories that would get on Blabbermouth within seconds, and ruin some reputations.

But it could also be due to feel, if you think something hasn't quite got the energy or seems too rushed when in comparison with the rest of the tracks, bump it down a up or down a few bpm. Not something thats really done nowadays but it was an option with tape.

I've done that a few times actually before we tracked gtrs, on drum tracks to add some life, you just have to remember to set the vari speed to on when you mix down.