Cassettes are hip again!!!

[J. Golden]

Never thought Jeremy would be the one to defend hip hop and rap. While yes theoretically the newest form of music, my issue is I just don't believe it to be music really. It's dumb downed poetry. When I hear some stuff off hand, there is the occasional song I can consider to be music but generally it's repetitive with no real emotion or ingenuity to it. As with Bob, I also hate the culture it has created for the most part, and no I'm not racist at all, it just appears they treat gangsters as musicians with it.

Always keep them guessing is what I say.
One does not have to consider it music or not, that is not up for opinion based debate; by definition rap is in fact music, it meets all the requirements.
Hip hop really doesn't need defending it pretty much as proven it can hold its own. But again I can look at things objectively and intelligently.
When i was a kick and rap was in its infancy basically I did not have any opinion of it one way or the other. By the name groups like NWA started rolling in all the guys I hung with started to gavitate towards that and left behind their Metallica. I did not care for the rap, and in all honesty did not care much for Metallica. In those days I remember Possessed, Grim Reaper, and Helloween were big for me. Looking back on it I can now appriacate stuff like NWA and recognize what it was and did. I also reallize that I was basically listening to mindless songs like "See You in Hell', 'Fear No evil', and 'I Want Out' which in retrospect don't really seem very relative, certainly not current and issue based, and well lyrics like "suck it and see" just don't strike me as being very thought provoking.
Do not get me wrong though I love Grim Reaper and Helloween still as well as all that heavy metal that basically is just narsism with noodely guitars and high pitch screaming vocals, it is my preferred listening pleasure but inventive, thought provoking, groundbreaking, whatever is typically not in heavy metal, well not in the simplest term that is. For that matter I could say the same about hip hop.

 

[SteelFireRecs]

The only rap/hip hop i listen to

 

[dcowboys311]

so clever, I bet you are one who uses kvlt right?

Sarcasm detector clearly broken

Sure some rap is totally terrible, but so is Mayhem

dumb

 

[dcowboys311]

dumb downed poetry

Plenty of hip-hop out there with more complexity, insight, and talent than whatever poetry you read.

 

[Jasonic]

Back in the day ,I always thought of some rap as the inner city's punk rock, so to speak.
Many rappers were fighting the same enemy as many militant punk bands.

I think why so many rock / metal / punk / etc aren't as accepting of rap has to do with the fact that rappers being only singers and lyricists are not really "musicians" per se.
They rap along to preprogrammed beats laid down by their sound engineer.

I am not saying that it doesnt take some element of skill and talent to rap.

It's just debatable how you compare the "talent" compared to a musician.

I always liked NWA, Dr Dre, Young Black Teenagers, Beasties, House of Pain, and maybe a couple others.

 

[dcowboys311]

They rap along to preprogrammed beats laid down by their sound engineer.

Which is dumb....singers sing along to riffs 'laid down' by their guitarists, or beats 'laid down' by their drummers. Unless you are a singer/musician, which isn't that different from rappers who make their own beats, which is not uncommon.

 

[Jasonic]

Fair enough.......
Though many vocalists in rock bands still influence some of the rhythms in the songs to better match their range.
I can't speak for rappers as I have never been in a studio with one.
I am not sure how much pre-production there is for your standard rap album where the rapper themself is present to take part of.

That goes the same for the majority of pop singers as well.

I guess the rappers (I think and hope) actually write some of what they actually say on a track.

 

[J. Golden]

Of course rap and hip hop culture developed the same way as punk rock, they are virtual siblings. Why rock n roll does not accept it is for the same reason so many people have issues with the culture still, racism and it is threatening the same as blues, jazz, and rock n roll once was until the white stole it and crown a white man king.
To a sense the same thing has been attempted with rap that is how hip hop culture has become so accepted today - accept by Bob.
As for comparing programming to those "musicians" well that can be argued; if you make music then would you not be a musician? You know there was music made long before guitars. Would the programmed machine not be just another instrument? But hey I have actually said the same thing, though I do in fact know than that.

 

[J. Golden]

Fair enough.......
Though many vocalists in rock bands still influence some of the rhythms in the songs to better match their range.
I can't speak for rappers as I have never been in a studio with one.
I am not sure how much pre-production there is for your standard rap album where the rapper themself is present to take part of.

Rapping is just a different way of vocalizing nothing more. Listen to much country, there is a way a lot of country singers vocalize that is not only a bit difficult to do but usually sounds odd to the ear that is not use to it. How about Tiabetian throat singing, or native American vocalizing that would often be in non-lexical chats that would raise in octaves as the tempo increased. Or whatever the hell Diamanda Galas is doing. All these are just different ways to vocalize. I see rap as almost jazzy, well those good at it anyway.

 

[Diabolik]

thank god we have scholars here like Jeremy to tell us noobs how things are in the world.

 

[Jasonic]

Look , all I am saying is that to rock fans rappers seem to have less cred as "musicians"

I think it depends on how "involved" the singer is (of any genre) in the writing / recording / mixdown process in determining if they are a musician.

I mean by your logic, is Miley Cyrus and Britney Spears a musician?
Sorry, but I say a big NO!!!

I mean, you have issues with tribute bands, right, because they do not play original music?

Well, wouldn't a singer who doesn't have any involvement be just as "false"?

Anyhow, this is a hell of a lot more than I wanted to get into this discussion.

 

[dcowboys311]

Sure and these are the same people that say electronic music isn't music because it's made on a computer. They're just dumb.

 

[J. Golden]

thank god we have scholars here like Jeremy to tell us noobs how things are in the world.

my bad, often I forget that people into heavy metal, and certainly in a heavy metal forum cannot have intelligent discussion. Or is it you just can't keep up?
But I'll try to do better. How is this; "I like x band because they put out a limited 10 cassette demo and they are all the rage on the underground and oh so kvlt. So kvlt I must type that again using all caps KVLT"

I'll also start trying to get into all the fag bashing you guys do on each other.

 

[J. Golden]

Look , all I am saying is that to rock fans rappers seem to have less cred as "musicians"

I think it depends on how "involved" the singer is (of any genre) in the writing / recording / mixdown process in determining if they are a musician.

I mean by your logic, is Miley Cyrus and Britney Spears a musician?
Sorry, but I say a big NO!!!

I mean, you have issues with tribute bands, right, because they do not play original music?

Well, wouldn't a singer who doesn't have any involvement be just as "false"?

Anyhow, this is a hell of a lot more than I wanted to get into this discussion.

tribute bands are musician no debating that because they are actually playing music; just as a carpenter builds, but that is not saying the carpenter is an architect.
If we say these people are not musicians then that would not only be the tribute band, the rapper, Hanna Montana, the people who would play Mozart's works, etc it would almost be everyone. So what is it we are discussing here; musicians or artist?
Also consider the average "rock fan" not thinking we are finding the most critical, educated, and open minds in that lot.
No they don't like the rapper and think the rapper has no talent or whatever but I challenge them to try to do what the rapper does.

 

[Diabolik]

my bad, often I forget that people into heavy metal, and certainly in a heavy metal forum cannot have intelligent discussion. Or is it you just can't keep up?
But I'll try to do better. How is this; "I like x band because they put out a limited 10 cassette demo and they are all the rage on the underground and oh so kvlt. So kvlt I must type that again using all caps KVLT"

I'll also start trying to get into all the fag bashing you guys do on each other.

I missed the intelligent conversation that was going on...I was looking at the finger pointing belittling comments you were making about metal fans and people who are not into rap / hip hop culture as racist or not culturely aware.

You love going back to the limited cassette thing like it bothers me...i could care less and I am the one person who bashes cassettes all the time. You love to bash the traditional metal fan but these are the folks who will support your label and buy your merch...why would you want to insult them? Sure there is a lot to say about people jumping in on the bandwagon and trying to hard...we all see it and know it. Any smart business man would know how to use that for their advantage.

 

[Jasonic]

Any smart business man would know how to use that for their advantage.

True that!!! Poser / n00B / Hipster money still spends!!!!!!

Back on topic, yeah, it's funny with the whole pop star thing.
I always look at someone like Britney Spears as an entertainer.
She appeals to a crowd who is looking to be force fed entertainment, and people wanting whatever is current or hip.

I can not consider any pop star who has NO stake in the writing process to be a "musician" I do get your point on how a singer can still be a musician, and certainly some rappers can fall into this category.

 

[dcowboys311]

Are you familiar with the % of creative control Britney has over her songs? I want numbers, dammit!

 

[Jasonic]

Are you familiar with the % of creative control Britney has over her songs? I want numbers, dammit!

I can't believe I actually took the time to inquire.
From the very little research I did, it seems like she may have co-written a small handful of her songs.

Sorry, I take everything back I said.

She is a modern Freddie Mercury. My bad.

 

[Element_man]

A very large chunk of the modern, charting pop music is written by a handful of guys from Sweden and Norway. I remember doing a bunch of research on that.

 

[Jasonic]

A very large chunk of the modern, charting pop music is written by a handful of guys from Sweden and Norway. I remember doing a bunch of research on that.

Handful of guys from Norway?