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[CD INZANE]

Ok, and I'll put it direct to Claus who's screwed up our blog: You buy from the label that puts out the band's cds direct, why would they then file illegal parallel import when they sell to you in the first place.

You guys are either bored or confused. It made for an interesting blog that morphed into a great conversation piece. Now everyone has a little more insight to what goes into those great import you buy.

...and don't forget, we are still pissed that you messed up our blog. I would never be unkind to you.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

...and don't forget, we are still pissed that you messed up our blog. I would never be unkind to you.

No, you're pissed off because I called you out on what you're doing wrong.

"the Claus fellow"

 

[Mosquito]

I'm not taking sides in this argument, but just wanted to ask/point out something. The only reason I buy Euro or Jap imports (purposely) is when theres a bonus track I want. I think that is why a lot of people do (that or one of the versions is out a lot earlier). I'm not completely aware of all the business aspects of selling albums, but I would see the bonus track thing being a big cause in why people will buy import albums. I know that bonus tracks are added for the Japanese because theres cost so much over there, but people here feel shafted because of it a lot of the time and want that extra song or two.

Aside from this though, I see how this does affect negatively for a band.

It seems like there is some misunderstanding at how this does hurt the band, as everyone is seeing it in terms of 'how much is sold'. Obviously the sale of the album doesn't hurt the band, but where the album is sold could have an impact.

Let's use this as an example:

I will use the band Qwerty (a made up band) to try to explain what I believe is going on.

Qwerty is releasing their new album, it is sent to Europe, Japan, and the USA to be sold. Each region has their own distributor!

Here are two scenarios...


Scenario 1:
Qwerty sells 30 copies, 10 in each of the regions, because they have been successful in all three regions, the distributor will keep them on their list for their next release. Tours can happen, etc.

Scenario 2 (the one I believe Claus is describing):
Qwerty sells 30 copies, 14 in Japan, 3 in the USA, and 13 in Europe. However, lets say 4 of the Jap and 3 of the Euro sales are ACTUALLY USA people who wanted it because it was sold before the USA version, bonus tracks, cheaper, whatever the reason, it will still look bad for the distributor in the USA.

Even if the distributor knows full well WHY that people were buying the import doesn't change the fact, and the distributor loses business. The distributor won't sign on for the next album, may stop distrubition of the album entirely. Tours will probably not happen, etc etc.

While not meaning to, the customer actually hurts the band. Not the bands sales directly, but it can easily affect the band indirectly. Eventually, the USA might not even have Qwerty albums for sale, even if their popularity grows. However, chances are this growth will be stumped because there is no distribution because of the import problems.

This is crazy stuff, and I had never really thought about it. Am I understanding this correctly Claus?

Justin

 

[Claus / Intromental]

I'm not taking sides in this argument, but just wanted to ask/point out something. The only reason I buy Euro or Jap imports (purposely) is when theres a bonus track I want. I think that is why a lot of people do (that or one of the versions is out a lot earlier). I'm not completely aware of all the business aspects of selling albums, but I would see the bonus track thing being a big cause in why people will buy import albums. I know that bonus tracks are added for the Japanese because theres cost so much over there, but people here feel shafted because of it a lot of the time and want that extra song or two.

Aside from this though, I see how this does affect negatively for a band.

It seems like there is some misunderstanding at how this does hurt the band, as everyone is seeing it in terms of 'how much is sold'. Obviously the sale of the album doesn't hurt the band, but where the album is sold could have an impact.

Let's use this as an example:

I will use the band Qwerty (a made up band) to try to explain what I believe is going on.

Qwerty is releases their new album, it is sent to Europe, Japan, and the USA to be sold. Each region has their own distributor!

Here are two scenarios...


Scenario 1:
Qwerty sells 30 copies, 10 in each of the regions, because they have been successful in all three regions, the distributor will keep them on their list for their next release. Tours can happen, etc.

Scenario 2 (the one I believe Claus is describing):
Qwerty sells 30 copies, 14 in Japan, 3 in the USA, and 13 in Europe. However, lets say 4 of the Jap and 3 of the Euro sales are ACTUALLY USA people who wanted it because it was sold before the USA version, bonus tracks, cheaper, whatever the reason, it will still look bad for the distributor in the USA.

Even if the distributor knows full well WHY that people were buying the import doesn't change the fact, and the distributor loses business. The distributor won't sign on for the next album, may stop distrubition of the album entirely. Tours will probably not happen, etc etc.

While not meaning to, the customer actually hurts the band. Not the bands sales directly, but it can easily affect the band indirectly. Eventually, the USA might not even have Qwerty albums for sale, even if their popularity grows. However, chances are this growth will be stumped because there is no distribution because of the import problems.

This is crazy stuff, and I had never really thought about it. Am I understanding this correctly Claus?

Justin

EXACTLY !!!!

Thanks,
c.

 

[Exploding Ned]

So I guess there's stacks of you who'd rather buy foreign than American? Is that what you're saying? Imports better than domestic? Occasionally, but not so much anymore. I always buy American whenever I can, and for those of you with short memories, ten years ago there were practically zero U.S. labels doing metal/related. So why don't you just appreciate the fact that a few good U.S. labels exist for metal... Laser's Edge/Sensory/etc. as an example. Why would you want to do anything to jeopardize their existence? Parallel import laws have existed for years, and are very real laws... no matter what anyone else says on this thread. I have retailed for over 20 years with imports, so I know WTF I'm talking about. LOTFP, Cherion and Inzane need to stop arguing with the facts. Parallel import laws are no 'grey area'. Keep screwing around in that 'grey area', and see what happens. Federalies aren't fun guests to have at your biz. I say avoid the 'noid and always buy American whenever possible.

 

[CD INZANE]

Everyone is getting and education here and it is about time. There are always fights between who should have what, retailer to retailer etc. We do not believe many of you know that about 90% of what you have in your import collections are not licensed for all territories. Imports are sold thru CD Japan but many are not to leave the Japanese region. Same as many areas.

Yes, absolutely no bands would tour the U.S. if this kept up. What!!! Is intrometal planning to send Raintime to Progpower VII without any cds to buy beings Claus hinted they were not licensed from the label for sale in the U.S.? Boy would that be a bummer, not only to the band, but if you were one of the top bands and went to europe with no cds to play the biggest festival every, what a bummer.

I would be the bigger, be the band, drop the label and work with someone else.

All of these are good points. We always get beat up, you see it everywhere, but being in the spotlight sometime means being the best. Support these bands, buy U.S., buy Imports but don't stop buying. Music is for all. At least no illegal downloads are being talked of here. That is an entirely larger subject.

 

[Mosquito]

Mike,

I don't think anyone was intentionally buying imports to hurt American labels, I think it was just a misunderstanding at how the Parallel import laws worked. I didn't even know about them until about 20 minutes ago, and had never even thought about how buying an import would actually impact a market like that. I think it was just not being clear on how it worked, that's all.

 

[CD INZANE]

Ned, you should have bought our old sight, still pissed at you for that. You could have had all those caps and !!! to show how exciting those imports are.

You guys still don't get it. The labels whom own the rights sell to us direct. Why would there be anything illegal about that in the first place then? They own the rights, they gave us exclusive rights to sell.

It makes us wonder what you've learned in 20 year of retail Ned, comments...

 

[Claus / Intromental]

Yes, absolutely no bands would tour the U.S. if this kept up. What!!! Is intrometal planning to send Raintime to Progpower VII without any cds to buy beings Claus hinted they were not licensed from the label for sale in the U.S.? Boy would that be a bummer, not only to the band, but if you were one of the top bands and went to europe with no cds to play the biggest festival every, what a bummer.

You don't understand what you're talking about, and it amazes me you're even capable of running that business of yours with that in mind.

Raintime is licensed to 4 different labels in each their territory. The US territory is run by Bieler Bros / part of the Warner distribution group, which will make sure plenty of copies are available in the US by the time the band hits US shores.

The fact is that you buy both the Lifeforce and the Soundholic version, eventhough none of those are selling directly to you (they ensured me of that), so what you're doing is illegal parallel import.

Claus

 

[longshot9]

Eventually, the USA might not even have Qwerty albums for sale, even if their popularity grows. However, chances are this growth will be stumped because there is no distribution because of the import problems.
Justin

Zane will still have them!!

You don't want us to buy foreign versions of the cd's, then give us the same f'in tracks. Problem solved. uke:

 

[Claus / Intromental]

You guys still don't get it. The labels whom own the rights sell to us direct. Why would there be anything illegal about that in the first place then? They own the rights, they gave us exclusive rights to sell.

NO THEY DON'T.

The labels who own the rights in the US are: Sensory Records for CIRCUS MAXIMUS and Bieler Bros Records for RAINTIME. You just said you weren't buying from any US labels = you're not buying from those who have the rights to sell it to you.

It's amazing that nothing gets stuck in that brain of yours.

Claus

 

[Exploding Ned]

Mosquito, like Claus says that's exactly the point. Wanna have more trouble seeing that killer metal band with a small U.S. label distributing their product here? Then go ahead... buy the import. Can't wait a couple weeks for the U.S. version to come out? Yeah it would really kill you to wait. Contribute to the U.S. label dropping the band or worse yet going out of business. Then piss and moan when that band never tours here anymore. That's exactly what happens. The only suggestion I would have for the problem is, the U.S. labels need to grab the bonus tracks and add them to the album. I recall a Tad Morose album from a couple years back on Century Media. The U.S. version had 3 bonus tracks. That policy for all U.S. releases would help make them bulletproof.

I'm not taking sides in this argument, but just wanted to ask/point out something. The only reason I buy Euro or Jap imports (purposely) is when theres a bonus track I want. I think that is why a lot of people do (that or one of the versions is out a lot earlier). I'm not completely aware of all the business aspects of selling albums, but I would see the bonus track thing being a big cause in why people will buy import albums. I know that bonus tracks are added for the Japanese because theres cost so much over there, but people here feel shafted because of it a lot of the time and want that extra song or two.

Aside from this though, I see how this does affect negatively for a band.

It seems like there is some misunderstanding at how this does hurt the band, as everyone is seeing it in terms of 'how much is sold'. Obviously the sale of the album doesn't hurt the band, but where the album is sold could have an impact.

Let's use this as an example:

I will use the band Qwerty (a made up band) to try to explain what I believe is going on.

Qwerty is releasing their new album, it is sent to Europe, Japan, and the USA to be sold. Each region has their own distributor!

Here are two scenarios...


Scenario 1:
Qwerty sells 30 copies, 10 in each of the regions, because they have been successful in all three regions, the distributor will keep them on their list for their next release. Tours can happen, etc.

Scenario 2 (the one I believe Claus is describing):
Qwerty sells 30 copies, 14 in Japan, 3 in the USA, and 13 in Europe. However, lets say 4 of the Jap and 3 of the Euro sales are ACTUALLY USA people who wanted it because it was sold before the USA version, bonus tracks, cheaper, whatever the reason, it will still look bad for the distributor in the USA.

Even if the distributor knows full well WHY that people were buying the import doesn't change the fact, and the distributor loses business. The distributor won't sign on for the next album, may stop distrubition of the album entirely. Tours will probably not happen, etc etc.

While not meaning to, the customer actually hurts the band. Not the bands sales directly, but it can easily affect the band indirectly. Eventually, the USA might not even have Qwerty albums for sale, even if their popularity grows. However, chances are this growth will be stumped because there is no distribution because of the import problems.

This is crazy stuff, and I had never really thought about it. Am I understanding this correctly Claus?

Justin

 

[Mosquito]

Zane will still have them!!

You don't want us to buy foreign versions of the cd's, then give us the same f'in tracks. Problem solved. uke:

Between the USA and Euro versions, I think that's easy. However, it will be very difficult to convince the Japanese distributors to allow that to happen. The labels/distributors over there practically demand a bonus track for their country because of the price of selling it over there, otherwise the Japanese fans would probably just order a cheaper import version or whatever (ie..the same problem we're looking at right now).

Basically it's way harder to do what you're asking than just saying to do it. Though I agree that it would be better if it were all equal.

 

[Mosquito]

Mosquito, like Claus says that's exactly the point. Wanna have more trouble seeing that killer metal band with a small U.S. label distributing their product here? Then go ahead... buy the import. Can't wait a couple weeks for the U.S. version to come out? Yeah it would really kill you to wait. Contribute to the U.S. label dropping the band or worse yet going out of business. Then piss and moan when that band never tours here anymore. That's exactly what happens. The only suggestion I would have for the problem is, the U.S. labels need to grab the bonus tracks and add them to the album. I recall a Tad Morose album from a couple years back on Century Media. The U.S. version had 3 bonus tracks. That policy for all U.S. releases would help make them bulletproof.

No no no...I know what he's saying...you just quoted my post bro =p

I was just saying that many of the others on the forum might not have understood what Claus was trying to say. I fully agree that it would be more beneficial in the long run to purchase the American copy.

 

[Curufin]

Goddamn, I think I need to get some popcorn for this.

 

[Exploding Ned]

I'm doing fine with my site... my biz pays the bills and I piss off very few knowledgeable people. And as for my biz knowledge, I'll put that up against yours any day. I do it all here, with zero employees... have for all these years. I don't move 500 copies of X title like you claim to do (pure b.s. I might add), but I still make a decent living. You're the one doing the illegal parallel imports. Stop trying to pass the buck and for once do the right thing.

Ned, you should have bought our old sight, still pissed at you for that. You could have had all those caps and !!! to show how exciting those imports are.

You guys still don't get it. The labels whom own the rights sell to us direct. Why would there be anything illegal about that in the first place then? They own the rights, they gave us exclusive rights to sell.

It makes us wonder what you've learned in 20 year of retail Ned, comments...

 

[Exploding Ned]

Intentional is not the point here, this is an excellent chance for the facts to come out about this... so U.S. consumers can now know the truth.

Mike,

I don't think anyone was intentionally buying imports to hurt American labels, I think it was just a misunderstanding at how the Parallel import laws worked. I didn't even know about them until about 20 minutes ago, and had never even thought about how buying an import would actually impact a market like that. I think it was just not being clear on how it worked, that's all.

 

[lasercd]

Zane:

I was alerted to check out this thread because it relates to you handling a parallel import version of Circus Maximus. I have to admit that I had a difficult time understanding your posts. I read each one 2-3 times so I think I have somewhat of a handle on what you are trying to convey. You seem to have difficulty understanding licensing, distribution rights, contracts, etc. The words seem to be used by you interchangeably but it’s hard to tell the real meaning.

I will get to the heart of the matter, please correct me if I am wrong.

You indicated that we (Sensory Records) never contacted you directly to alert you of the availability of Circus Maximus “Isolate”. This is correct. If you recall some months ago you and I had a private exchange. One of your imaginary employees in the imaginary warehouse placed two orders with us – both of which he (you?) cancelled. Because of the unpredictable nature of the purchase orders coming from your company I stated that I would not be able to sell directly. Instead I pointed out that CD Inzane can purchase our releases through a variety of distributors including AEC, Big Daddy, The End Records, Century Media, ao. Your response to me was that it was not a problem for you because you deal with one-stops all the time. AEC is the largest one-stop in the country, if not the world. The release information for Circus Maximus appears in their weekly issue of Amped, which as a customer I’m sure you receive. It is not our job to notify each retailer of an upcoming release – that is why we have distributors. I think they do a superb job.

Further it is common knowledge that Circus Maximus is affiliated with Sensory Records. We are the world license holders for The First Chapter. We sublicensed that title to Frontiers Records for Europe. We are the North American license holder for Isolate. Some time ago we posted on this forum (and others) that we would be issuing the CD at the approximate time as the European release. That we were releasing Isolate should not in any way have been a surprise to you. Zane, I’ve spoken with you on the phone and in person. I know you are far more intelligent, coherent and personable than you indicated in your comments here. You were well aware of our impending release – we both know this. For some reason you were taking preorders on the Frontiers version months before it was released. Only you can explain why. I remained publicly silent but I did notify Frontiers of the matter in advance. Intromental Management was made aware as well.

You can skirt around the facts but the reality is you have violated our territorial rights to this particular release. I had not planned to make a public issue of it nor was I even planning to issue a (sic) “seaze and assist” notice. Your impact on the market is negligible, If you had more presence in the North American market I would be more than willing to seek legal counsel to defend our rights. On the other hand based on the tone of your comments perhaps I should reconsider.

I’m very disappointed that you don’t seem to “get it” because deep down I think you really do.

I wish you all the best with your new website – it is genuinely beautiful. Hopefully in the future your business practices will be as professional as the site.

Sincerely,
Ken Golden
The Lasers’ Edge/Sensory Records
www.lasersedgegroup.com

 

[Angrafan]

Every licesncing deal has a "territory" established.

As the owner of Overload Records (Brazil), I'd be pissed if I saw imports of the CDs I've licensed with exclusivity to the Brazilian terriotory. Especially cheap imports that could compete with my prices.

The same happens the other way around. If I were to sell my CDs to the USA, I'd have better prices than anyone, as the brazilian currency is on a 2/1 ratio with the dollar. I don't think Century Media would be too happy If I started selling Mercenary albums for 4 dollars in the USA... that's't why it's on my contract with Century Media that I won't export any CDs...
We are both protected by the contract.. They won't sell to Brazil, I won't export..

 

[Mosquito]

Intentional is not the point here, this is an excellent chance for the facts to come out about this... so U.S. consumers can now know the truth.

I agree with you, I was just saying that most people aren't aware of these laws. Now that they know, they will hopefully be more careful of which version they buy. Without knowing about this stuff, I would've just kept buying whatever and not really caring (because in my mind, as long as I bought the album, it wouldn't matter). I do think more people need to be made aware of this.