CD sales in metal

Jordan94k

Member
Aug 24, 2006
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I've just been curious about this for a while now...I know a lot of people download music nowadays (legally and illegally).

How many records do bands actually sell these days (both in the US and worldwide)? bands like Falconer vs. Circus Maximus vs. Symphony X vs. Iced Earth vs. Dream Theater vs. Children of Bodom or Lamb of God or some other big name act (just looking for a range of information here)

How many legal downloads off of programs like iTunes?

None of my friends ever buy CDs any more and hardly any of them download music legally...so I'm wondering how this really affects bands in a less popular genre.
 
That information comes from Nielsen SoundScan http://www.soundscan.com but you have to pay for it and isn't available to the general public. I think it's also incomplete, since it's a point of purchase tracking system it doesn't count sales from small online retailers etc.
 
True, Soundscan data is incomplete, but it's much more accurate than the old way, which basically was word-of-mouth from record stores. It's interesting to note how various genres' sales figures changed after Soundscan was implemented. :heh:

Arbitron recently launched a new 'actual' measuring system for tracking radio listening, instead of relying on listeners keeping logs and diaries. It's a limited test so far, but the results are fascinating.
 
I think in a lot of ways that while Pop gets all the airplay and makes a lot of money overall, there's also a lot of people who aren't particularly attached to the musicians & bands. They listen to whatever is popular and if a band ends up a one hit wonder, it's no skin off their back. Underground genres tend to have a higher percentage of dedicated fans.
Though there are a few too many people with the mentality of not buying albums whatsoever. Which I don't understand. Especially when album sales could be the difference between US tour or not for a European metal band.
 
Metal fans really care about their favorite bands and want them to make money. While I'm sure metal fans illegally download like mofos, it's mainly for hearing the music before they buy, or simply wanting to hear it without having to wait for it to actually be released. As we've seen with Symphony X's latest in the other thread.

I have no doubt that Paradise Lost is going to sell far more units than any previous Symphony X album. they'll also sell more tickets and merch on their tour.
 
Often times when I hear of a new band or a new CD from an established band, I'll "sample" their music via MP3 first. If I like what I hear, I'll support the band and buy the actual CD.

There are legal sites such as eMusic which I have a subscription to. Even then if I like the music well enough, I'll still purchase the CD for the lyrics, cover art, and I can make my own high quality MP3 files (320K bit rate) for my iPod or Creative Labs Zen Nano (flash based MP3 player).

But since much of this music does not get played on the radio, I want to more about a band and what they sound like before I go out and purchase a CD. I've been bitten too many times when you'll hear a song on the radio and purchase a CD, and come to find out that the rest of the tracks suck.
 
I cant stand the sound of MP3s...especially on a good system with the volume jacked up... sounds like crap... I download a lot of samples off the net and always buy the CD if I like it. I don't have one CD with MP3s on it... just my 3 cents.

I also agree with what Adeher said... I want my favorite bands to keep recording and producing quality work so I have no problem spending my money on their merchandise... I hope people feel the same way about my product some day... what goes around comes around... Karma...
 
I cant stand the sound of MP3s...especially on a good system with the volume jacked up... sounds like crap... I download a lot of samples off the net and always buy the CD if I like it. I don't have one CD with MP3s on it... just my 3 cents.

I also agree with what Adeher said... I want my favorite bands to keep recording and producing quality work so I have no problem spending my money on their merchandise... I hope people feel the same way about my product some day... what goes around comes around... Karma...

This basically sums up how I feel as well. I don't really download music, unless it's to check something out. I don't own an MP3 player/iPod or put MP3s on CDs to play in my car. (I do upload a lot of my CD purchases to my laptop and, on occasion, burn mix CDs to play elsewhere.) I said it to someone the other day: I'm a huge dork when it comes to stuff like this. I'm the kind of girl who'd rather pay the extra money and have an actual ticket than Internet print-out, rather have a CD with case and artwork than just a download on my computer, etc. I'm willing to put out the money for the bands I love because I want to see them come to the US and tour, spread the word about their greatness, and succeed in whatever aspects they can in this industry. Part of that is just for the love of the music and part of that is also Karma - someday I hope folks will help my band in the same way.

I would imagine that what Jibrille said has a lot of truth in it. Underground genres do tend to have a higher percentage of dedicated fans. We are the kind of folks that record companies should be paying attention to. Unfortunately most are too blind to see that, so year after year they "create" these commodity bands on reality-TV :puke: , internally within the labels :yuk:, and elsewhere, just to have about 95% of those bands fall out of the limelight within a couple months to a few years. :rolleyes:
 
This basically sums up how I feel as well. I don't really download music, unless it's to check something out. I don't own an MP3 player/iPod or put MP3s on CDs to play in my car. (I do upload a lot of my CD purchases to my laptop and, on occasion, burn mix CDs to play elsewhere.)

This is a little off topic, but you don't have to be a downloader to enjoy the technological magic of MP3s; you can still support the artists. Ripping a disc you've bought takes about a minute on a modern PC, and uploading it to your MP3 player takes about another minute. MP3 players come in very handy for applications where cds themselves are either inconvenient or just not feasible (such as working out). I happen to have an MP3 cd player in my car, and I have around 100 albums on about 12 CDRs in my glove compartment -- all of which I paid for with my hard-earned money.

Occasionally you'll run into a copy-protected cd, but if you really want to, the copy-protection is always easy to get around. In fact, all copy-protection does is piss off the consumer, and it should be done away with.
 
This basically sums up how I feel as well. I don't really download music, unless it's to check something out. I don't own an MP3 player/iPod or put MP3s on CDs to play in my car. (I do upload a lot of my CD purchases to my laptop and, on occasion, burn mix CDs to play elsewhere.) I said it to someone the other day: I'm a huge dork when it comes to stuff like this. I'm the kind of girl who'd rather pay the extra money and have an actual ticket than Internet print-out, rather have a CD with case and artwork than just a download on my computer, etc. I'm willing to put out the money for the bands I love because I want to see them come to the US and tour, spread the word about their greatness, and succeed in whatever aspects they can in this industry. Part of that is just for the love of the music and part of that is also Karma - someday I hope folks will help my band in the same way.

I would imagine that what Jibrille said has a lot of truth in it. Underground genres do tend to have a higher percentage of dedicated fans. We are the kind of folks that record companies should be paying attention to. Unfortunately most are too blind to see that, so year after year they "create" these commodity bands on reality-TV :puke: , internally within the labels :yuk:, and elsewhere, just to have about 95% of those bands fall out of the limelight within a couple months to a few years. :rolleyes:

I'll second what you said, because you've described me to a tee. The only reason I'd ever own an Ipod is to upload my music to use while running and working out. It is much easier dealing with a small Ipod while running instead of a traditional CD player. Otherwise, I'll buy CDs all day long! :kickass:

We could argue over this point all day long, but I'm convinced that metal fans are much more loyal to their bands as opposed to other genres. I know I'm biased, but I truly feel that way. I mean hell, I'll buy several versions of a Jon Oliva or Savatage CD for cryin' out loud! I truly want to support the bands that I'm a fan of by buying their CDs, tickets, and merchandise.

~Brian~
 
Well, basically everyone has said the same thing...which is mostly how I feel as well. Downloading is alright (by moral standards I mean, not the law) as long as you are "sampling" and then you buy the actual albums of the ones that blow you away.

I do however think that I am in the minority for my age group. I'm 20 as of about a week ago, but I would be willing to say that most of the people that think the same way I do are the ones that were around when the only music you could get wasn't available online. I'm talking 25+ years old. I would also assume that most of the people under that age limit comprise the majority of the potential CD buyers out there. Just some more stuff to think about...
 
Dream Theater has a range of sales numbers. Their upcoming album will probably sell over 100k copies. That's my guess. I think the last sold around 63k, but they are getting a lot better marketing this year. For example, the 'cool' bands are saying how 'cool' Dream Theater is now. Of course, those 'cool' bands are the popular bands with the kids on the same label. But this can and will work. Plus, Dream Theater backed it up with a thrashier single.

Lamb of God... I forget. But check out wikipedia. Sometimes you can find numbers.

As for ProgPower bands... I'd say that other than certain headliners you are seeing 10-20k albums sold for the bigger bands. Under 5k for many others.

Overall, album sales are down from the past. Even when you factor in legit digital downloads.

But there are very good reasons for this. Its partly because people can listen to their favorite singles from one-hit wonders all they want at-will and even legally (usually) online. No longer do they have to request from their favorite radio station or buy a full album to get it.

Plus, people do 'pre-listen' more now. And they find out that an album is junk. I bet that if there was a study to compare people's overall satisfaction with their album purchases, that it has increased over the years.

So yeah. Album buying is down. But I believe that people feel their money is better spent now.

Record companies like to say how bands just don't sell millions of copies as often as they used to. That's true. Will we ever have arena rock or metal bands selling 15 million copies again? Maybe. Maybe not. Music sales might cycle through lull periods. It might increase again. Who knows.

But fuck if I am concerned about the welfare of major studios pockets. Since musicians get so little anyhow.

I almost want to start a 'Send the band $10 cash, and download the album' campaign. But... yeah I know that might hurt the investment of labels for studio time, tours, and t-shirts...
 
Lastly...

Check out this research study. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?JPE31618PDF

Here's a part of the conclusion.

The advent of the new P2P technologies can be considered in a
broader context. A key question is how social welfare changes with
weaker property rights for information goods. To make such a calculation,
we would need to know how the production of music responds
to the presence of file sharing. On the basis of our results, we do not
believe that file sharing had a significant effect on the supply of recorded
music. For artists who produce commercially relevant products, the effects
documented in this study are simply too small to change the number
or quality of recordings that they release. And for new bands that
are about to launch their career, the probability of success is so low as
to make the expected income from producing music virtually zero, so
file sharing will not change the relevant incentives. If we are correct in
arguing that downloading has had little effect on the incentives to produce
music, we agree with Rob and Waldfogel (2006), who find that
file sharing likely increased aggregate welfare. The limited shifts from
sales to downloads are simply transfers between firms and consumers.
But the sheer magnitude of P2P activity, the billions of songs downloaded
each year, suggests that the added social welfare from file sharing
is likely to be high.
 
Agree with your sentiments BRMH. I too want to have the CD in my hand with the artwork and lyrics. I also like having the concert ticket instead of a print out. I do think I am behind the times with a lot of the technology out there. I don't use a cellphone or have an ipod. I guess you can say I am old school in a lot of ways.
 
Lastly...

Check out this research study. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?JPE31618PDF

Here's a part of the conclusion.

This is entirely misleading and ultimately false. I've been working in the industry, specializing with independent labels and the independent market for two decades. The downturn in overall sales of music in the market directly correlates with the rise and increased access to illegal file-sharing/downloading. Legal digital sales, while steadily increasing, isn't even meaningfully measureable when compared with illegal downloads. While core fans of niche genres, that's us folks, who care about artists and the music they love, will typically support bands by purchasing their music, the vast majority of people don't care. They see it as victimless crime, when if fact it is not - the overall worldwide aggregate loss is in the billions - that's billions people. While there is more music and more ways to get it then ever, the overall monetized pie is smaller because less and less people are buying music - it's hard to compete with free!

Here's one figure:
In 1996, music companies shipped more than 1.1 billion units -- all physical product -- for a value of $12.5 billion, according to the Recording Industry Association of America. Ten years later, despite a decline in physical product sold, they industry has "shipped" approximately 1.6 billion units -- but its value is down by a billion dollars, to $11.5 billion.

As you can see, while more music is being sold, less money is being made. This doesn't even account for the fact that the dollar is worth less now then it was then, so this number is actually much worse than it looks. And I've seen even much worse estimate then this one, which is somewhat conservative.

It's a fallacy to think that just because fans of niche genres, like prog-metal and such, that just because they're not as likely to download they're tunes illegally, that they'll be ok or better off. The ability to sell into the market, reach the consumer, relies and various forms of distribution and retail, all of which cost money, whether brick & motar or digital. These channels exist because of the overall volume of sales. In other words, indie labels and bands only get access to signficant distribution and larger retail channels because they are kept in business by larger volume sellers, i.e., Britney Spears, Madonna, Justin Timberlake, Jay-Z, whatever - as the pop stuff is downloaded massively, that's major losses at retail - so they go bankrupt (seen any record stores lately) the list goes on: Tower, Wherehouse, Musicland, etc.; as retail goes under, distribution shrinks, as distributors shrink, they let go of smaller labels (niche genres go first), then the labels let go of artists and lay off employees - the CEO is the last one to get hurt.

Bottomline here, as the overall market shrinks, the overall monetized pies is smaller, and therefore less sales, less profit - and despite what you may here otherwise, the loss at traditional retail isn't being replaced by digital sales - it's being cannibalized by illegal traffic. The difference is huge - if sales are sufficient, then for example there's not enough money to support touring, which in turn further hurts sales.

The sad truth is that as long as the illegal downloading continues, and it will, it's only going to get worse. The possibility for independent artist to make a living at their art full time is disappearing, without the larger avenues of sales, labels are being reduced to boutique size and artist will have to continue to work full time doing other things and go on tour less.

Don't mean to be all doom and gloom here, but these are the facts, coming from within the industry, on the label and artist side of things. We just have to keep fighting the good fight, support what we love, which is great music, spread the word, and hope that somehow we can stop this scourge that is demolishing the music industry, while retaining all this wonderful new technololgy, but in a monetized form - so we can keep on rockin! Thank god for things like ProgPower and this forum and other places like it to bring people who love and support great music together!
 
Dream Theater has a range of sales numbers. Their upcoming album will probably sell over 100k copies. That's my guess. I think the last sold around 63k, but they are getting a lot better marketing this year. For example, the 'cool' bands are saying how 'cool' Dream Theater is now. Of course, those 'cool' bands are the popular bands with the kids on the same label. But this can and will work. Plus, Dream Theater backed it up with a thrashier single.

Lamb of God... I forget. But check out wikipedia. Sometimes you can find numbers.

As for ProgPower bands... I'd say that other than certain headliners you are seeing 10-20k albums sold for the bigger bands. Under 5k for many others.

Overall, album sales are down from the past. Even when you factor in legit digital downloads.

But there are very good reasons for this. Its partly because people can listen to their favorite singles from one-hit wonders all they want at-will and even legally (usually) online. No longer do they have to request from their favorite radio station or buy a full album to get it.

Plus, people do 'pre-listen' more now. And they find out that an album is junk. I bet that if there was a study to compare people's overall satisfaction with their album purchases, that it has increased over the years.

So yeah. Album buying is down. But I believe that people feel their money is better spent now.

Record companies like to say how bands just don't sell millions of copies as often as they used to. That's true. Will we ever have arena rock or metal bands selling 15 million copies again? Maybe. Maybe not. Music sales might cycle through lull periods. It might increase again. Who knows.

But fuck if I am concerned about the welfare of major studios pockets. Since musicians get so little anyhow.

I almost want to start a 'Send the band $10 cash, and download the album' campaign. But... yeah I know that might hurt the investment of labels for studio time, tours, and t-shirts...

These sales number are pretty close. Though very few indie artists break the 100k mark these days, and unless you get to the 25k-50k range, you can forget any significant tour support from the label.

And by the way, the losses in the market hurt the welfare of the indie labels and artists too, in fact we get hurt first, because we don't have deep pockets like the majors. The tide raises all boats, or in this case, lowers them all. We're all in the ocean...
 
This is entirely misleading and ultimately false. I've been working in the industry, specializing with independent labels and the independent market for two decades. The downturn in overall sales of music in the market directly correlates with the rise and increased access to illegal file-sharing/downloading. Legal digital sales, while steadily increasing, isn't even meaningfully measureable when compared with illegal downloads. While core fans of niche genres, that's us folks, who care about artists and the music they love, will typically support bands by purchasing their music, the vast majority of people don't care. They see it as victimless crime, when if fact it is not - the overall worldwide aggregate loss is in the billions - that's billions people. While there is more music and more ways to get it then ever, the overall monetized pie is smaller because less and less people are buying music - it's hard to compete with free!

Here's one figure:
In 1996, music companies shipped more than 1.1 billion units -- all physical product -- for a value of $12.5 billion, according to the Recording Industry Association of America. Ten years later, despite a decline in physical product sold, they industry has "shipped" approximately 1.6 billion units -- but its value is down by a billion dollars, to $11.5 billion.

As you can see, while more music is being sold, less money is being made. This doesn't even account for the fact that the dollar is worth less now then it was then, so this number is actually much worse than it looks. And I've seen even much worse estimate then this one, which is somewhat conservative.

It's a fallacy to think that just because fans of niche genres, like prog-metal and such, that just because they're not as likely to download they're tunes illegally, that they'll be ok or better off. The ability to sell into the market, reach the consumer, relies and various forms of distribution and retail, all of which cost money, whether brick & motar or digital. These channels exist because of the overall volume of sales. In other words, indie labels and bands only get access to signficant distribution and larger retail channels because they are kept in business by larger volume sellers, i.e., Britney Spears, Madonna, Justin Timberlake, Jay-Z, whatever - as the pop stuff is downloaded massively, that's major losses at retail - so they go bankrupt (seen any record stores lately) the list goes on: Tower, Wherehouse, Musicland, etc.; as retail goes under, distribution shrinks, as distributors shrink, they let go of smaller labels (niche genres go first), then the labels let go of artists and lay off employees - the CEO is the last one to get hurt.

Bottomline here, as the overall market shrinks, the overall monetized pies is smaller, and therefore less sales, less profit - and despite what you may here otherwise, the loss at traditional retail isn't being replaced by digital sales - it's being cannibalized by illegal traffic. The difference is huge - if sales are sufficient, then for example there's not enough money to support touring, which in turn further hurts sales.

The sad truth is that as long as the illegal downloading continues, and it will, it's only going to get worse. The possibility for independent artist to make a living at their art full time is disappearing, without the larger avenues of sales, labels are being reduced to boutique size and artist will have to continue to work full time doing other things and go on tour less.

Don't mean to be all doom and gloom here, but these are the facts, coming from within the industry, on the label and artist side of things. We just have to keep fighting the good fight, support what we love, which is great music, spread the word, and hope that somehow we can stop this scourge that is demolishing the music industry, while retaining all this wonderful new technololgy, but in a monetized form - so we can keep on rockin! Thank god for things like ProgPower and this forum and other places like it to bring people who love and support great music together!

I forgot to mention that overall loses in the market, that includes digital sales, has been down on average of 15% a year for several years running, in fact losses have been happening steadily since 2001. Despite more music being made and more people consuming it then ever - they're just not paying for it! or are paying much less...
 
Have you seen international numbers? I know that England was seeing an increase in sales in 2004-2005 timeframe I believe.

I'd be interested in hearing from small label owners how their sales trends have been. But of course, at a micro level like that it would be difficult to generalize since it can depend on one or two bands they sign that year that break 'big.' Still be interesting though.