CD sales in metal
- Thread starter Jordan94k
- Start date
Jim LotFP
The Keeper of Metal
eh, you make it sound like it's some sort of madhouse of illegal goods over here.
Cruising the European webshops is absolutely no different than shopping from US webshops. The goods carried by the mailorder departments at places like Displeased, Season of Mist, Firebox, Psychedoomelic, etc etc etc etc are just as legit as those carried by places like The End, Laser's Edge, Sentinel Steel, etc. Sure, some places carry "unauthorized" releases but so do US shops... and the latest such thing I've come across (a Gotham City anthology which turned out to be not legitimate when I asked Anders Zackrisson about it) was put out by someone in the US.
MEGALOUD
The Nightmare Has Begun..
The FIDDLER makes a VERY good point, as do others after him,
buying your CD's from a bands website is certainly not a bad thing to do,
it helps them make a bit more money to cover things that need covering in order to keep doing what they love to do. However Soundscan is really important to the bands as well, and many are more interested to get those numbers up.
There are TONS of official online CDstores that DON'T actually report to soundscan, those that do, like the really big ones like AMAZON, and larger ones associated with well known chain stores, all do report.
Nightmare actually doesn't report our sales yet from our webstore, and it's something I'm looking to change with the new site we're designing.
This does make a difference not only to the promoters, but to the wholesale cd resellers (STORES) if those numbers are not all that impressive, many of them may not even order the CD in stock for their shop or outlet. They'll wait to get someone to request it. This business is all about the buzz on so many levels.
buying your CD's from a bands website is certainly not a bad thing to do,
it helps them make a bit more money to cover things that need covering in order to keep doing what they love to do. However Soundscan is really important to the bands as well, and many are more interested to get those numbers up.
There are TONS of official online CDstores that DON'T actually report to soundscan, those that do, like the really big ones like AMAZON, and larger ones associated with well known chain stores, all do report.
Nightmare actually doesn't report our sales yet from our webstore, and it's something I'm looking to change with the new site we're designing.
This does make a difference not only to the promoters, but to the wholesale cd resellers (STORES) if those numbers are not all that impressive, many of them may not even order the CD in stock for their shop or outlet. They'll wait to get someone to request it. This business is all about the buzz on so many levels.
MEGALOUD
The Nightmare Has Begun..
On this subject I can speak as a label and not an artist, but as a label, obviously we are limited to a certain territory to sell our wares, it does hurt your local record companies that are trying to help the scene and support the artists in that market, by spending their money, to promote, press and distribute...(and hopefully sell) into their legal market....one the titles that are licensed to several different smaller labels around the world, there can be some issues with some companies also not being very scrupulous about they're wholesale habits.....in other words, selling they versions overseas directly at wholesale discounts to other vendors to resell in a territory that is not their legitimate area....I've had some problems with this, actually quite a bit of problems with this with one particular company that is well known, but will remain un-named here......this obviously is not just the overseas companies fault but the domestic company that is also purchasing the discs for resale.....though we as a label can sell internationally through Amazon, EBay and our own retail websites, we cannot sell wholesale to other Territories, it's in the agreements we sign with the artists and or other labels we're working with.
Why did I go into all this? To let you know that when your buying an imported version of something through a domestic vendor, and there is a domestic version available, that this has it's effect on the artist, and the label in your market that is supporting that artist in your market as well, it can have a rather BIG effect actually, because sales figures are where they are, 200 CD's can make a big difference for the labels, and this is a realistic number of illegal imports that typically come in to certain websites.
For example... Nightmare's new release of SCELERATA coming up in August but MTM will be releasing it overseas in June, there will be a few vendors that will rally to get the imported version in before we get ours out. MTM is a great company and will do their very best to avoid this from happening, but...some vendors will do whatever possible to get titles in to secure their loyal buyers the first available copies....this presents it's share of problems for us in that, if we can't have a unified release date, ( and that isn't always possible) We can't release the album! I ignored this fact with the new Scelerata album against my better judgement because MTM is such a great company at keeping their stuff out of other territories. But as an experiment, let's see where this album show up first : )
Jim LotFP
The Keeper of Metal
Holy poopsticks, that's a phrase that's going to inspire a rant.
There are numerous reasons to buy an "out of territory" version of an album.
Release dates. A true admirer of a band's work shouldn't be pressured to wait for the local version to come out if it's out in another territory earlier. Staggered release dates are not the fan's problem, and not even something they need to be aware of if they are used to ordering their music by mail.
There was a company that handles the US releases for a good number of European labels... and because of the involvement of certain individuals with that company I refused to give them a dime. When I lived in the States, I made it a point to buy the European versions of their albums I wanted, at greater expense, to put the screws to this one label in my own little way, as insignificant as it was. Record companies ask for support for themselves as well as the band, and sometimes the company a fan wants to support is the one selling the same album that you are from another territory.
Versions of the same album are different from company to company. How many companies are dealing with the Roadrunner reissues worldwide? I know at least two of them are offering different sets of bonus tracks on some albums. If one territory decides on a digipak and the other doesn't, well, that can have an effect on which version someone decides to buy. Not to mention that American companies (Century Media and Metal Blade in particular have pissed me off some years back) have released incomplete, inferior versions of albums they have licensed from European companies. Imagine how satisfied with my purchases I was when I found out the European versions of certain albums had full booklets with lyrics... and good luck trying to find out about differences like that between versions because the press that has the reviews out (not to mention the downloaders...) usually don't pay attention to packaging or lyrics because they often never see them (or don't care) when writing their review. The recent Wuthering Heights release was unusual because the different formats for the album around the world was quite plainly stated. Probably a subtle way of one territory saying "Mine's best, buy it," without being unprofessional about it.
Anyway, any agreement signed by a band or label that seeks to restrict vendors from legitimately carrying whichever version (or multiple versions) for sale is fucking the paying fan.
Jim, I think you're misunderstanding Lance.
There are a number of illegal presses of many albums. Especially ones that have had limited releases or have been discontinued. They often come out of countries like Russia where laws are either lax or simply ignored. People have been purchasing a version of Raintime's Tales From Sadness from ebay which I'm 90% sure is not the legitimate copy. Nightwish had this problem with boxsets of their material being released. To counter that they released their own official boxsets. Search ebay for Evanescence's Origin album. A ton of them claim to be the official re-release of the album, which has never happened. 2000 copies were made in two seperate pressings and that is it. Wind-Up along with any other label do not have the rights to release the album as is due to the contract that was signed when Wind-Up grabbed them from BigWig.
These are illegal releases that the artists don't see a penny of. They have no attachment to the official European releases which you are fully within your right to import.
There are a number of illegal presses of many albums. Especially ones that have had limited releases or have been discontinued. They often come out of countries like Russia where laws are either lax or simply ignored. People have been purchasing a version of Raintime's Tales From Sadness from ebay which I'm 90% sure is not the legitimate copy. Nightwish had this problem with boxsets of their material being released. To counter that they released their own official boxsets. Search ebay for Evanescence's Origin album. A ton of them claim to be the official re-release of the album, which has never happened. 2000 copies were made in two seperate pressings and that is it. Wind-Up along with any other label do not have the rights to release the album as is due to the contract that was signed when Wind-Up grabbed them from BigWig.
These are illegal releases that the artists don't see a penny of. They have no attachment to the official European releases which you are fully within your right to import.
Iced Dog
The Stormrider's Pooch
Does CD Inzane fall into this category? They seem to have access to just about any import title, regardless of whether there will be a domestic release in the future.
I didn't say that. I didn't even imply it. In the very first sentece you quoted I acknowledged the legitimacy of European dealers. I don't profess to be familiar with all of them, but to add to your list Muisic Express in Germany, and CDExpress/Rockhouse in Holland are 2 others I have used.
On the other hand an eBay search for Bloodbound results in this listing for $4.94 and if it's a second item from the seller $5.49 for shipping. Total $10.43 including shipping from "London" though I'd almost guarentee you this package arrives from Moscow or Minsk.
From The End its $14.24 including domestic shipping.
From AORHeaven in Germany it's $11.31 + 8.00 Euro's shipping > $20.00 US.
eBay is full of these listings. Raintime- Tales From Sadness $10.49 including shipping. Location: Canada, United States. Bullshit! Metalpinss shipments come from Minsk. What a freaking fiasco that was. Never again.
NuclearHell (London) has all of these listed for under $10.00. Buy 3 and get free shipping.
Cloudscape- Crimson Skies costs $13.99 at Nightmare Records before domestic shipping.
Now since the dollar dropped to it's lowest level in ten years vs. the pound sterling a few weeks ago I have to assume one of two things. Either:
NuclearHell is a true pillar of virtue and sell CD's for what they're actually worth. And that Lance King, The End, and Exploding Ned are unscrupulous cads who have been price gouging us for years.
OR
Lance, The End, and Mike sell CD's at a reasonable price in order to maintain a business and make a living. And that these European listings are highly suspect.
Then on the MP3 front we have Russia's own http://www.allofmp3.com/ which is supposed to have been shut down, yet there it is. Average price for a download is 0.25¢. The average iTunes price is 0.99¢.
Is there a problem? Lament away Flame Princess....
Jim LotFP
The Keeper of Metal
I have no doubt that the specific examples you give are indeed pirate copies and that such a thing is a problem. I just take issue with the "high chance" thing and the definite implication that you can't walk without tripping over such things. But price isn't always a factor... http://www.sentinelsteel.com/AriseSale2.html Tales from Sadness on sale for $8.
MEGALOUD said:
MEGALOUD said:
He's not talking about the "bogus Russian copies" here, but with using a term like "illegal import" he's trying to equate the two separate issues.
Let's make this discussion more fun. Being in Finland, what if I want the Candlelight USA pressing of one of Witchcraft's albums instead of the Rise Above Records version for whatever reason... or what if I was in the US and wanted the Rise Above version. I think few people outside of the involved licensees give a poop.
There are legitimate Russian record labels that do legitimately license albums. At least sometimes they have special terms and are really anal about keeping these albums within the specific territory. Is ordering one of these fully licensed versions at a cut-rate price any more or less wrong?
Hell, I remember when IronD (www.irond.ru) licensed Bal Sagoth's The Power Cosmic and printed an actual booklet for it... which Nuclear Blast had declined to do, so both the band and Nuclear Blast's site pointed people in that direction. Actual words from Nuclear Blast's site:
Nuclear Blast said:
Jim's translation: "HAHAHAHAHAH FUCK YOU IF YOU BOUGHT THIS FROM US, AHHAHAHAHAHA." Anyone in the US or Europe that bought the version of this album "in their territory" (me) got fucked, and anyone buying the Russian version got the real, and legitimate, deal.
MEGALOUD
The Nightmare Has Begun..
Actually, I was really addressing the more mainstream music markets,
you guys bring up a good point, that I didn't really address, and that is 3rd world markets, these markets also license albums, typically they don't get the rights to an album until about 6 months to a year after the main markets, for a couple of reasons, one is that they don't pay very much of a fee because their actual market is very small, the other is something you bring up here, that they may try to expand their "legal market", so there are some issues with their product coming into the other areas. Now there is more to this equation, A) it costs A LOT LESS to make CD's in these markets, this is why they can sell them for so much less. It also costs a lot less to ship from these markets, different currency exchange/value of the other Countries money value so though it looks pretty cheap to us, in Russia and Brazil, their making more per copy than they do in their own territory selling them at what equates to $3-$5.
Most of the copies that you guys are referring to above, are probably legit, meaning, they've been licensed to their territory by the band, bands manager or sublicensed by one of the bands labels. Though there most certainly are still bootleggers out there that are re-issuing stuff all the time after it's gone out of print, Manufacturing plants even in the USA, Canada (these are the ones that I'm familiar with) didn't really used to pay much attention to this, but there has been in the last 5 years or so a big crack down on this here, record companies, bands or individuals pressing up a CD/DVD need to file
a form that they have the copyrights etc, so there is a lot less bootlegging going on in North America than ever before, however, in some fiscally challenged Countries in Europe and South America, even Mexico, this still is quite a bit easier to do, Mexico now is an up and coming market that is manufacturing legal and illegal licensed products and exporting them into
the US market.
OK, so there are two issues being discussed here, Bootlegged titles, and Illegal imports....Now I want to be clear ....Imports are not illegal to buy from a vendor anywhere....it is not the consumers concern...Unless they want to think about the bigger picture, I was bringing this up to make a point about supporting the artists in the best way possible, and in doing so you need to support their labels in your market, since the labels are a big part of the bands support system ( if they are doing their job as a label).
Many bootlegged titles are of older titles of bands that have long since disbanded, and their original pressings were released independently and or the original label they were released on is not around anymore.
My best guess as too why this is that way is the bootleggers are assuming that the original owners of the intellectual property and or the copyright owner won't notice these copies are out there. Obviously this is not nearly as easy in this day and technology what it is. But many of these you'll find in bins for cash sale not listed on the internet.
On the Other point I was making at first...without getting too long winded, (lot to express) the Vendors that choose to import a version from Europe, because it's a digi, or has a bonus track or whatever the consumer selling point is,
are not helping bands or their labels, rather themselves, there are some legal ramifications if the label wanted to push the issue, especially if the label, had informed these vendors well in advance of their version of the release, but this happens all the time, it's more that the Label and their
distributor are responsible for selling the discs into territories wholesale that are not their legal area. So the foreign label doing this is the offending party really, though the vendor buying these isn't helping the situation.
Most of the vendors and labels are very supportive of one another trying to help the scene so this usually isn't a problem, if there is clear communication, but there are some exceptions, (and it's hard to hold my tongue here as to who they are), there are lot's of titles, and there is obviously some competition in order to sell CD's. Here's a hint....Those Companies that put CD's up on their sites months in advance of their release dates, to take pre-orders of imports, that have a label releasing a domestic version of the same album, are probably the ones that are most guilty of this...
Jim LotFP
The Keeper of Metal
Why aren't "first world" companies manufacturing their product in the "third world" pressing plants if everything is so much cheaper?
MEGALOUD
The Nightmare Has Begun..
Good question!
a few reasons I don't do it is that it's hard to police them, and there really is a good chance of bootlegging happening, I'm concerned about turn times meeting release dates etc.
MEGALOUD
The Nightmare Has Begun..
AS I SUSPECTED, BUT DIDN'T WANT TO SAY UNTIL HE PROVED IT....
ZANE HAS AGAIN STEPPED UP AND ON ONE OF OUR RELEASES
BRINGING IN THE IMPORTED VERSION BEFORE WE CAN GET OUT THE
DOMESTIC.
THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT PREVIOUSLY.
Not only that, he says he has them in bulk to sell wholesale into our market as well.
Taken from CDINZANE's new email catalog....
Hello,
We usually don't get around to sending out emails about our new releases, but today we took some time to put something together for you.
The following are now available in bulk stock at www.cdinzane.com
CD INZANE LLC MINNEAPOLIS
763-391-9344
New Arrivals
SCELERATA - "DARKNESS AND LIGHT + VIDEO (2007)"
FACINATING BRAZILLIAN POWER-METAL RELEASE IN THE LINES OF EARLY "EDGUY" FEATURES 10 MASSIVE DEBUT TRACKS, PLUS AN EXCLUSIVE BONUS VIDEO FOR "EMINENCE" AND THE DOCUMENTARY "MAKING OF"
, EXCLUSIVE TO THIS GERMAN IMPORT EDITION...
$14.95
And there it is way down in the alpabetically listed items...bingo
So what I'm going to do right this minute is offer every one a little
deal....9.99 PRE-ORDER PRICE, after release date it will go up to our normal
price of 13.99
We'll have these in 35 days....then we'll ship them out.
Save yourself some money, help your local label that continues to bring you
the best in PROG-POWER metal.
Thank you!
Lance King
ZANE HAS AGAIN STEPPED UP AND ON ONE OF OUR RELEASES
BRINGING IN THE IMPORTED VERSION BEFORE WE CAN GET OUT THE
DOMESTIC.
THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT PREVIOUSLY.
Not only that, he says he has them in bulk to sell wholesale into our market as well.
Taken from CDINZANE's new email catalog....
Hello,
We usually don't get around to sending out emails about our new releases, but today we took some time to put something together for you.
The following are now available in bulk stock at www.cdinzane.com
CD INZANE LLC MINNEAPOLIS
763-391-9344
New Arrivals
SCELERATA - "DARKNESS AND LIGHT + VIDEO (2007)"
FACINATING BRAZILLIAN POWER-METAL RELEASE IN THE LINES OF EARLY "EDGUY" FEATURES 10 MASSIVE DEBUT TRACKS, PLUS AN EXCLUSIVE BONUS VIDEO FOR "EMINENCE" AND THE DOCUMENTARY "MAKING OF"
, EXCLUSIVE TO THIS GERMAN IMPORT EDITION...
$14.95
And there it is way down in the alpabetically listed items...bingo
So what I'm going to do right this minute is offer every one a little
deal....9.99 PRE-ORDER PRICE, after release date it will go up to our normal
price of 13.99
We'll have these in 35 days....then we'll ship them out.
Save yourself some money, help your local label that continues to bring you
the best in PROG-POWER metal.
Thank you!
Lance King
MEGALOUD
The Nightmare Has Begun..
True enought, but...
how can you campare EBAY and AMAZON to CDINZANE?
They're international marketplaces...and have vendors from all over the
world posting there.
Not many folks would know that this release came out last year in Brazil
and Japan, until Europe and the USA start to promote it this year.
So there are some copies of this available there.
Lance, I emphasize with you. However, it's a 21st Century Global Internet marketplace these days. Ideally labels could coordinate release dates to avoid this kind of thing. I know that's not possible in many cases as an album may be released in one region before any agreements are even signed in another.
Nevertheless, independent vendors may choose to grab the first version available to maximize sales while the excitement and anticipation of any given title is at it's peak, namely the initial release.
I can understand how and why you would have hard feelings for Zane since he's undercutting your distribution. But CDInzane is a vendor, and he has to compete with vendors like Caiman. For that matter as it's an online business CDInzane is also an international marketplace, though granted his primary market may be the US. As long as he's not dealing with questionable $4.99 CD's, I can't really blame him.
guardian26
Mike the Cop
Magius makes a good point. Why not hold the release until all labels are ready to drop the album? And put the same booklets or songs on it. But then people wouldn't spend extra money on the "exclusive" digis, bonus japanese songs, etc.
MEGALOUD
The Nightmare Has Begun..
as I said above, sometimes this happens, and yes we knew we would have our release out later than Europe's version....just a little unhappy with our distributors release dates we got...But we'll have the product in about 35 days.
The release was actually released in Brazil and Japan in 2006
so there are copies out there on this release, I'm not slagging Zane for
bagging them, it's business, BUT it's nice when we all work together
rather than against one another, Zane being in the prog power world
a small world should know this, the point I'm trying to make
above is just one more detail in the larger picture of the changing climate
of music sales.
I guess the only reason I mentioned Zane is that he's done this a couple of times with our releases in the past, and I guess I have a bad taste in my mouth about it. But Zane works hard to get stuff in first, even before he really has it a lot of the time, but that's another story :Smug:
This is all part of the "instant gratification" that we as consumers have
grown to love and expect these days.
So how does this effect "CD SALES IN METAL", or why should I care?
I like the fact that I can get it now, and pay a premium for it!
We'll Those of you that like the fidelity of a CD, the full blown frequency
response that the band and producer intended you to hear. For those of you that are 'studio-philes' and or more or less "quality freaks" that haven't lost their hearing to metal yet, can hear and appreciate the difference between a high quality aif /wav file on a CD as compared with a wimpy mp3 file ripped at moderate kb squashed and compressing all the life out of them. Your going to really want to pay attention here. If labels can't sell at least a certain amount of discs in their said
territory, they'll stop doing it, go out of business or go to a new business model where it's all digital.
More labels will stop making CD's in any kind of quantity, there will be more LIMITED PRESSINGS of 500 copies or less. Then it may go to CDR's instead of real retail ready CD's that last a lot longer. And since CDR's cost more to make individually, your cost really won't change much for those but the art quality will be worse, and the CD's will be a lower quality item as well.
Or you'll pay the higher import fee, which I assume will go up when there isn't domestic competition for those sales.
So those $14.95-$18 European Imports will quickly start getting more expensive.
Of course you can always pay for the downloads, or get them free if you
know where to look, but if you get them free that doesn't help the band to
create more music in the future.
So the system starts to implode basiclly and everyone is scrambling for
the next system to start. But the consumer may be the one that looses
in the end, looses the band they love, or loses the label that they like
or looses the cheaper versions of high quality artwork and music on CD they crave and long for.
So again...is it business as usual these days? Yes and no,
there is some protocol and there are some systems that help to keep it,
although it is getting harder and harder to police those protocols.
Why do you think they put different regions on DVD's?
Because the MOTION PICTURE industry, that makes 10-50 times what the music industry does, was smart enough to employ this when DVD technology
was coming in, they learned from the MUSIC INDUSTRIES obvious
mistakes with this one.
Anyway, love to chat more about this topic but I've got work to do
The release was actually released in Brazil and Japan in 2006
so there are copies out there on this release, I'm not slagging Zane for
bagging them, it's business, BUT it's nice when we all work together
rather than against one another, Zane being in the prog power world
a small world should know this, the point I'm trying to make
above is just one more detail in the larger picture of the changing climate
of music sales.
I guess the only reason I mentioned Zane is that he's done this a couple of times with our releases in the past, and I guess I have a bad taste in my mouth about it. But Zane works hard to get stuff in first, even before he really has it a lot of the time, but that's another story :Smug:
This is all part of the "instant gratification" that we as consumers have
grown to love and expect these days.
So how does this effect "CD SALES IN METAL", or why should I care?
I like the fact that I can get it now, and pay a premium for it!
We'll Those of you that like the fidelity of a CD, the full blown frequency
response that the band and producer intended you to hear. For those of you that are 'studio-philes' and or more or less "quality freaks" that haven't lost their hearing to metal yet, can hear and appreciate the difference between a high quality aif /wav file on a CD as compared with a wimpy mp3 file ripped at moderate kb squashed and compressing all the life out of them. Your going to really want to pay attention here. If labels can't sell at least a certain amount of discs in their said
territory, they'll stop doing it, go out of business or go to a new business model where it's all digital.
More labels will stop making CD's in any kind of quantity, there will be more LIMITED PRESSINGS of 500 copies or less. Then it may go to CDR's instead of real retail ready CD's that last a lot longer. And since CDR's cost more to make individually, your cost really won't change much for those but the art quality will be worse, and the CD's will be a lower quality item as well.
Or you'll pay the higher import fee, which I assume will go up when there isn't domestic competition for those sales.
So those $14.95-$18 European Imports will quickly start getting more expensive.
Of course you can always pay for the downloads, or get them free if you
know where to look, but if you get them free that doesn't help the band to
create more music in the future.
So the system starts to implode basiclly and everyone is scrambling for
the next system to start. But the consumer may be the one that looses
in the end, looses the band they love, or loses the label that they like
or looses the cheaper versions of high quality artwork and music on CD they crave and long for.
So again...is it business as usual these days? Yes and no,
there is some protocol and there are some systems that help to keep it,
although it is getting harder and harder to police those protocols.
Why do you think they put different regions on DVD's?
Because the MOTION PICTURE industry, that makes 10-50 times what the music industry does, was smart enough to employ this when DVD technology
was coming in, they learned from the MUSIC INDUSTRIES obvious
mistakes with this one.
Anyway, love to chat more about this topic but I've got work to do
Lance,
thing is most people will wait for a domestic release. That or they download it anyhow. I don't think Zane is going to hurt your bottom line much.
thing is most people will wait for a domestic release. That or they download it anyhow. I don't think Zane is going to hurt your bottom line much.
mëtålspëd
Umlauts ist Krieg
It all depends on the release, and the import price for me. I will be honest... I dont care the source. I will take a reasonably priced import now, over waiting months for a domestic.
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