P2P TORRENTS AND THE EVIL THEY DO

[skyrefuge]

1 album illegally downloaded = 1 album (that album) not purchased (at that moment)

Ok, fantastic. We all agree. We just don't care, because that statement tells us nothing interesting. In global warming discussions, no one has to repeatedly say "Carbon dioxide = greenhouse gas" because everyone agrees on that too. But it doesn't tell us anything about the causes or effects of global warming.

with a growing preponderance of evidence suggesting the second half of the equation isn't happening.

See, I wish *I* could see the same 'preponderance of evidence' that you do. Because to me, my gut feeling is that illegal downloading *must* have a negative effect on record sales. But I haven't seen evidence that actually supports that, and unlike you, I'm not willing to make any sort of claims based on my gut feeling alone, because that clearly leads to people saying lots of stupid things that just aren't true.

There are still too many other potential explanations for decreases in record sales. I won't cover them here since they've been mentioned pretty well already in this thread (particularly in the freakanomics(?) guy's post)

And just because someone running a record label thinks their sales decrease is due to illegal downloading, that doesn't mean they're right; they don't have any more knowledge than anyone else about the real reason for any sales decreases. I always think of people I've seen who have said stuff like "'Burnt Offerings' is Iced Earth's worst album, even Jon Schaffer says so". But just because Jon created the album, that doesn't give him some special insight into the 'right' opinion.

(2) People like Lance whom I respect greatly are telling me that it's hurting his business.

I think it's also good to point out here that you're going well beyond Lance's stance. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I would guess that he would be perfectly fine with illegal downloading, if there was some way to guarantee that people who liked the album would buy it. Of course that's the hard (impossible) part, but you seem to be getting so wrapped up in this that you're precluding the possibility that an illegal download could EVER be acceptable to anyone in the business.

Neil

 

[skyrefuge]

Another awesome post Lance. God, I love to see real data! It's great to see that you're so proactive about making your music available *everywhere*. I haven't even heard of 70% of those download sites/apps, and I know a lot more than most people. I wish every band/label was as thorough as you, because there is still a lot of music that I can't find in electronic form (though admittedly, most new releases coming out today eventually become available somewhere). I almost feel bad that I'm not too big into your styles of music anymore, otherwise I throw some support your way.

EDIT: hmm, but I notice the 2nd most popular music download store, eMusic, is missing. Any special reason for that?

I encourage everyone that must try before you buy to join one of these places like Rhapsody or Napster that offer that sort of a package.

Hmm, that actually sounds like a good idea that I hadn't seriously considered before. I don't like the idea of subscription services where you don't "own" the music, but if it's cheap enough, I could just use that as my sampling method, and then buy the stuff I like elsewhere (or even through them, if I can get it DRM-free). It comes as close to my proposed 'pay-per-listen' scheme as we'll probably ever see in reality. Still my main doubt would be the availability of stuff I want to hear. The nice thing about the 'illegal' store is that they have EVERYTHING. It's a one-stop shop. I wouldn't want to have to sign up for 5 different subscription services to be able to get access to what I want. Does anyone have any comments about availability of stuff at Rhapsody, etc.?

Neil

 

[Cheiron]

Rhapsody gets better as it goes on. When I first started using it a couple years ago there wasn't too much metal. But now you have most of the major labels on board. Sensory is one of the few that isn't, among metal labels that I regularly purchase from.

It lacks albums that don't have a US label/primary distributor though.

Of this year's bands at ProgPower there's Volbeat, Jon Oliva's Pain, Andromeda, Riverside, Serenity, Iron Savior, and Astral Doors.

 

[DAVETHEMETALGUY]

Why cant yall understand that! downloaders STEAL. We dont care how many shirts you buy to make up for that fact. and yes that does make you fuckkhedz
NOW im done with this thread.

Definitely. If you illegally download, just don't try to get any of us to agree with your self-justification. You're stealing from the band fukkhedz. Period.

 

[MEGALOUD]

.9 cents is 9/10ths of one cent. This isn't 9 cents, or .9 dollars.

1 Rhapsody stream according to Lance means $0.009. So to make $9, it would have to stream one thousand times.

Yes he is correct, sorry I didn't look at that closely, there are other sites that offer more money to bands and labels as you can see clearly from the streams statement above.

 

[MEGALOUD]

EDIT: hmm, but I notice the 2nd most popular music download store, eMusic, is missing. Any special reason for that?

Neil[/QUOTE]

YOU KNOW WHAT? I just noticed that 3 days ago and am waiting on the response still from our digital distributor, we were on EMUSIC and we were on AOLmusic, in fact Pyramaze still is I believe and several of our other titles, but our distibutor just pulled out of SNOCAP because of lame business practices and even more lame payouts, so my assumption here is that there was an issue of business practices from said sites that didn't work for our digital distributor. But the other side of this is they actually distribute to about 60 companies, and this title just may not have been serviced to those companies yet, or just hasn't been put online yet because of how long it takes that company to get things into their system.

But they've added CDBABY as a digital download store... with this and CDbaby has always streamed 2 minutes samples of whatever the artist felt he wanted folks to here. We have ALL tracks selected on our titles there so you can hear as I've stated before 2 minutes of all songs on an album from our releases at CDbaby and also buy the download for a cheaper price there sometimes on older titles cheaper than you will find ANYWHERE else.

 

[eaeolian]

I'd respond to your attack on me, but Neil did a much better job than I could. I will respond to ONE point, however:

I assert that you're so blinded by your desire to continue downloading illegally that you simply won't admit it. This thread -- and all Lance and others have written -- is lost on you. You don't see because you refuse to see.

I assert that you're so blinded by your passions on the subject that you can't see you're spitting rhetoric instead of seeing reality. The one that doesn't see because they refuse to is you, and it makes you look like an asshole.

 

[eaeolian]

Hmm, that actually sounds like a good idea that I hadn't seriously considered before. I don't like the idea of subscription services where you don't "own" the music, but if it's cheap enough, I could just use that as my sampling method, and then buy the stuff I like elsewhere (or even through them, if I can get it DRM-free). It comes as close to my proposed 'pay-per-listen' scheme as we'll probably ever see in reality. Still my main doubt would be the availability of stuff I want to hear. The nice thing about the 'illegal' store is that they have EVERYTHING. It's a one-stop shop. I wouldn't want to have to sign up for 5 different subscription services to be able to get access to what I want. Does anyone have any comments about availability of stuff at Rhapsody, etc.?

I must agree. I've avoided Rhapsody and it's ilk like the plague because of early bad experiences, but I'll investigate further.

 

[eaeolian]

But they've added CDBABY as a digital download store... with this and CDbaby has always streamed 2 minutes samples of whatever the artist felt he wanted folks to here. We have ALL tracks selected on our titles there so you can hear as I've stated before 2 minutes of all songs on an album from our releases at CDbaby and also buy the download for a cheaper price there sometimes on older titles cheaper than you will find ANYWHERE else.

Now this is a statement in this thread I can unreservedly agree with.

 

[P-roggy]

I agree with Lance in all possible ways. What's true about "illegal" downloading is that many people finds out about new bands etc etc etc which is good of course but, unfortunally there are too many people that for instance don't use their CD players anymore and only listens to downloads on the computer. But, even if this is a "good" promotional way for a band it really does hurt the band in the end. The independent labels don't get the income because of bad sales which means that they have to lower the recording advance to bands which means lesser good "production" (even aweful many times) which then causes people either loose interest in the band etc etc etc. It's like a spinning evil wheel without "evil thoughts". It ain't cheap to record albums if you want to record an album with a good production but, unfortunally good productions will be very rare in a not too distant future.

Some say that bands get a lot of money through merchandise sales....well, that is not a trustworthy way. At some gigs people buy a lot of merchandise and at other gigs people rarely buy anything.

I don't contribut much to this discussion because, I'm kinda fed up because of it so, basically I just say the following:
Please listen to Lance what he says and also learn what Lion music wrote in their statement. Don't look yourself "blind" on that particular label because, this is an existing problem for ALL independent labels...even the ones that have great and descently well known bands on their rosters. It just happened to be Lion music that opened their mouth. If you have the URGE to download then PLEASE buy the albums you like atleast. I understand many of you in this forum does but, unfortunally you are a minority. I promise you that, all of you that don't get the picture in Lion musics statement will be very sorry for downloading in a not too distant future. Sad but true wether you like it or not...cold facts.

 

[Metal_Warrior48]

Well this debate has been going on since the Napster debacle. I do believe DL does hurt certain bands and I believe other bands benefit from it. I believe if you look at stats, if there are any of you who is DL I would think the majority would high school, college, and those older or close to 25.
Their belief is that DL is alright with them. Us older folks having grown up in the days of 8 tracks, cassette tape, and vinyl appreciate those more and are more valuable to those individuals. I for one want the cd originals because of their value, covers, and liner notes.
Does it hurt big companies with those cds being DL probably not but it may indeed hurt those indie labels.
I to wonder why some cds get released or are sent out to radio stations early and then all of a sudden they are on P2P sites.

I for one want the original cds ans cover art it makes my own cd valuable to me and if they are rare release items more valuable in the future. I think it does hurt those smaller labels much more!

Metal Warrior48

 

[Magius]

Can this end now?

 

[Pellaz]

I was referring to companies like Ned's. Its not a personal attack, nor a statement of any hatred toward's his company, nor do I think he's greedy. But I don't believe that companies like his are all that useful, nor needed. I'd rather get my crack from the source (i.e. the band, when possible). Sadly, the source often won't sell. They are missing out.

The next time all the 'sources' (our genre labels, the bands I like, etc.) all show up at, say, the Atlanta Record Show, I'll buy from them.

Until that day -- which will be a looooong time in coming -- I'll be happy to buy from Ned, or any other retailer who puts effort into gathering CDs and merch from genres I like and puts them together in an easily-searchable way. And until that day, I'll maintain that people like Ned serve a purpose, are useful, and are needed and appreciated.

And as a sidenote, the next Atlanta Record Show will be this Sunday at the Marriott Century Center...giving us a valid, bonafide reason to venture back into town a day after Nightwish. See ya there, Exploding Ned's!

 

[Exploding Ned]

Yeah seeing Nightwish AND Paradise Lost in one night will be great, and I will undoubtedly be firing on a few less cylinders, but will in fact be at the show Sunday no worries. Thanx for the kind words Pellaz.

The next time all the 'sources' (our genre labels, the bands I like, etc.) all show up at, say, the Atlanta Record Show, I'll buy from them.

Until that day -- which will be a looooong time in coming -- I'll be happy to buy from Ned, or any other retailer who puts effort into gathering CDs and merch from genres I like and puts them together in an easily-searchable way. And until that day, I'll maintain that people like Ned serve a purpose, are useful, and are needed and appreciated.

And as a sidenote, the next Atlanta Record Show will be this Sunday at the Marriott Century Center...giving us a valid, bonafide reason to venture back into town a day after Nightwish. See ya there, Exploding Ned's!

 

[Pellaz]

Yeah seeing Nightwish AND Paradise Lost in one night will be great, and I will undoubtedly be firing on a few less cylinders, but will in fact be at the show Sunday no worries. Thanx for the kind words Pellaz.

I've a feeling there will be quite a few bleary eyes and tired faces at the record show on Sunday...mine among them.

 

[Greykiller]

At some point the preponderance of evidence has to be accepted.

Not to go way off topic, but consider evolution. Scientifically, there's no way to "prove" it. Science is based on repeatable experiments. You can't repeat evolution. Many scientists, however, consider the evidence that's out there, weigh it, and decide that evolution is scientific fact.


Do I wish to wait until the matter is proved conclusively, scientifically, and legally before I act on my beliefs? No. Because by then, if downloading is indeed damaging bands and labels, it's too late.

You are not way off topic. You are also completely wrong about evolution, be it biological or financial. Anyone who really understands 9th grade biology can "repeat" evolution. And you do not have to "believe" anything if you take a look at facts.

I will go back to my last post to refute yours and other's arguments:

Financial Darwinism specifies that if a certain "product-species" (metal music) is viable, it will prosper and grow--i.e.; exist in greater numbers. If it is not viable (if there is no money to be made), then it will die off i.e.; the population (releases) will trend downward and then disappear. Lance talks about how downloading has hurt the industry, and that downloading is the culprit. Logically, this means that there would be LESS releases, not more, since less income==less capital==less funding of music. This results in a downtrend of releases.

Instead, what we have is a serious uptrend in releases. If you look at the data, you should contend that metal is stronger than ever. The numbers prove it--I do not have to "believe," or "guess," all I have to do is look at the numbers from my previous post.

The evolution of metal and other forms of music includes illegal downloading, there is no way to deny that either.

Look at it this way:
5 years ago, before broadband, 10,000 people would walk right past metal releases in your local record store because they had never heard of the music, while one or two would buy 10 albums a year because they knew the genre. The people that walked past the shelf did not buy these albums but did not steal them either==no loss of income.

NOW, the same 2 or 3 people will buy the albums because they know the genre, and 100,000 will download the music. Thing is, of those 100,000 3 or 4 people will buy albums based on what they hear. I would call that an increase in the fan base. Which equals an increase in releases.

Maybe there are only 3 people out of 100,000 that download the next Pagan's album will buy it--if this is three sales MORE than would have occurred without illegal downloading, then downloading helped the album sales.

You can't count people who download albums. You can only look at the number of albums you sell. I have 200 albums I purchased (some of them right from Lance at his table) because I had heard at least one or two songs from downloads. I would never have bought them if I had not heard of them from some other venue.

Record industry folks say that downloads hurt the industry. I say the industry would be hurt WORSE if downloading did not exist.

 

[Exploding Ned]

Definitely, but at least it won't be MONDAY morning
Say, bring me a few cold beers (Negra Modelo, Yuengling Black & Tan, or Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Lager) for a special 'libation discount'.

I've a feeling there will be quite a few bleary eyes and tired faces at the record show on Sunday...mine among them.

 

[MEGALOUD]

Yesterday I sent Lasse a note bringing his attention to the fact that I posted his review policy that he had on line as a general awareness for metal fans to read here on this forum. Keep in mind Lasse or Lars as you probably know him has been a musician for a very long time, was signed in I believe
1981 to Shrapnel as a shredder.

I let him know that I had unknowingly unleashed a virtual shit storm of
conversation on both sides of the argument. This was his response....



"Thanks Lance!

I was not aware of the post, but I have received a few e-mails which I now understand, why I received (All in support actually).

I know this issue is upsetting a lot of people. As I see it, any change needs to come from the musicians and fans NOT from record label owners because the guys who steal the music, think that we are rich and it's cool to rip us off Or to be more precise: they don't think WE are rich but when they think of record labels, they don't think of us as much as of Sony, BMG and Roadrunner etc...

The whole try before you buy thing is bullshit. If people could steal food and get away with it, no one would pay for it later!

I know I can't change the world, I just try to make it totally clear to all the musicians out there that the money is gone in this business and that before the file sharing is controlled, things will only get worse and definitely not better. I am NOT about to quit though.

all the best

Lasse"


---

Nor am I going to quit, I love music and will continue, but I support Lasse's words 100%. So as a musician, I will try and work with what we have out there to work with and see if we can find a new way of getting more support.

Anyone feel like sponsoring a band or an indie label?

 

[Burnout]

Sorry to just jump in here, but I thought Quo Vadis' situation fit the thread perfectly:

it's just a few songs, not a whole album, with all the downloading crap going on I'm not sure what will happen with "albums" - especialy for bands like QV who self finance everything.

Apparently the band's working on new material, but there's no guarantee as to release format, length and such due to the downloading related crunch.

 

[recordheaven]

Found this interesting discussion, and thought that I'd say a word or three about this;

I am Johnny, head of Record Heaven / Transubstans in Sweden. No doubt that the downloading hurts the record industry badly. This week, I have more or less got indications from 4 various European labels & mailorders that the situation is on the limit of what they can take. No one mentioned, but the prog scene will be much more poor without these heroes.

I read all the pro arguments for downloading, but can't agree with one of them. In the end it have to be the band & label who decides where their releases can be downloaded, for money, or for free, no one else.

I do believe that most people that put the music up on the torrents & blogs do want to help the band, but I am sorry, it doesn't.

But until the day where people cannot be anonymous on the internet, and people will get a deeper insight in the DIY music industry, the problem will remain. The question is if there are any quality recordings left at that time.

All the best, Johnny
www.recordheaven.net