CD sales in metal

Not sure Jim. I was reading it as that it is raising the base level of artists. So smaller artists that used to get almost no exposure are now getting some exposure and increased sales. But maybe your interpretation is the right one.
 
Valarien, while the music industry happily keep fighting the windmills of p2p and internet as their worst nightmare, the real problem behind downgrading sales figures can be found much closer in the industry itself. I wont' speak much about the sub-par quality of the force fed 'music' you get to hear on the shortened playlists of corporate radio, but don't you think that it's about people becoming overloaded with too much entertainment these days?

It wasn't always like this; say, less than 15 yrs ago we didn't have the PCs, DVD-players, gamecubes, iPod-players or CPUs called cellphones (which just recently have become capable of receiving aired TV-broadcasts on top of everything else there already has been included), all piling bills to pay just for getting some contents to run the numerous trendy gadgets. The fact is that people in general will always have only a certain percentage of their income to splurge on this kind of unimportant stuff. Playing CDs and listening to music isn't the #1 source to fill one's lesure time any more outside daily commuting. Videogames aren't cheap, one is tempted to buy his/her favourite soap operas on DVDs covering all seasons since the beginning or the cellphone needs another ringtone again.
With all the things above taken into consideration, it is definitely very one-eyed view to accuse the people who download music for all the imaginary loss the industry has been said to be suffering from.

You get the picture? Money doesn't grow on trees, but there are much more entertainment suppliers sharing the entertainment market. Trends come, trends go, but people still have some taste. Major suppliers bullheadedly force-feeding crap on TV and radio will definitely make the tide turning and send people seeking for alternatives they are genuinely interested in. The internet has become the major source of altenative choices, a place where at least the thinking people can get what they want despite of ever growing restrictions set up by the industry moguls. Consumers have already guided the inventive geeks to build free entertainment resources in the virtual world where they have a say by uploading and downloading just the contents they want, and where they can bypass and ignore the corporate machine.

Back in the days when Napster was shot down by the moguls instead of them trying to utilize the technology, up popped a bazillion p2p's like mushrooms. Youtube and Myspace are, what, less than two yrs old phenomenon, but due the enormous popularity they gained in a few months, they are already feeling the corporate strangle, but up will pop... just think about it, the internet community have it's ways.

Why are we only now, after ten years past the birth of the technology starting to get legal sources where to buy the digital contents we really want. All we have got from the industry before has been the shaft: copy-protected CDs that refuse to run on usual players, absurd lawsuits, the FBI chasing and arresting ten yrs old kids for the crime of sharing copyrighted files, then charged with enormous compensation fees for imaginary losses.

Maybe it is the high time for the corporate industry to take a look in the mirror and start serving the customers and their rightful needs instead of settling down and telling them the trends on quartely bases. Dump the outdated market theories and those preaching them with the almighty market segmenting mantra already. Quit random categorizing and stop treating people as mindless mass. Give the consumers' opinions the weight they deserve. The result will hit more than a few cracks in the boned heads of those sitting in the ivory towers but will definitely receice a hurray from the other parties involve.

-My 2 bits- :saint:
 
Whatever...
Filesharing is stealing. If you download and use the files you're a thief. Don't like the terminology? Tough. You can justify it by any means you want, but it's stealing.
You're not entitled to anything because you feel corporate has been sticking it you for years or any other reason. Rightful needs??? WTF is that? The corporate industry is not obligated to cater to the needs of any miniscule underground subculture, this one included. Companies put out a product to sell the the greatest number of people they can. The vast majority seem to be perfectly happy to be spoonfed, but you're certainly free to not buy it if you don't like it. If you don't feel that they are providing what you want find an alternative or start your own company.
 
Magius said:
Whatever...
Filesharing is stealing. If you download and use the files you're a thief. Don't like the terminology? Tough. You can justify it by any means you want, but it's stealing.
You're not entitled to anything because you feel corporate has been sticking it you for years or any other reason. Rightful needs??? WTF is that? The corporate industry is not obligated to cater to the needs of any miniscule underground subculture, this one included. Companies put out a product to sell the the greatest number of people they can. The vast majority seem to be perfectly happy to be spoonfed, but you're certainly free to not buy it if you don't like it. If you don't feel that they are providing what you want find an alternative or start your own company.
Click to expand...

The law is against people uploading, not downloading.
 
Valarien said:
This is entirely misleading and ultimately false. I've been working in the industry, specializing with independent labels and the independent market for two decades. The downturn in overall sales of music in the market directly correlates with the rise and increased access to illegal file-sharing/downloading. Legal digital sales, while steadily increasing, isn't even meaningfully measureable when compared with illegal downloads. While core fans of niche genres, that's us folks, who care about artists and the music they love, will typically support bands by purchasing their music, the vast majority of people don't care. They see it as victimless crime, when if fact it is not - the overall worldwide aggregate loss is in the billions - that's billions people. While there is more music and more ways to get it then ever, the overall monetized pie is smaller because less and less people are buying music - it's hard to compete with free!

Here's one figure:
In 1996, music companies shipped more than 1.1 billion units -- all physical product -- for a value of $12.5 billion, according to the Recording Industry Association of America. Ten years later, despite a decline in physical product sold, they industry has "shipped" approximately 1.6 billion units -- but its value is down by a billion dollars, to $11.5 billion.

As you can see, while more music is being sold, less money is being made. This doesn't even account for the fact that the dollar is worth less now then it was then, so this number is actually much worse than it looks. And I've seen even much worse estimate then this one, which is somewhat conservative.

It's a fallacy to think that just because fans of niche genres, like prog-metal and such, that just because they're not as likely to download they're tunes illegally, that they'll be ok or better off. The ability to sell into the market, reach the consumer, relies and various forms of distribution and retail, all of which cost money, whether brick & motar or digital. These channels exist because of the overall volume of sales. In other words, indie labels and bands only get access to signficant distribution and larger retail channels because they are kept in business by larger volume sellers, i.e., Britney Spears, Madonna, Justin Timberlake, Jay-Z, whatever - as the pop stuff is downloaded massively, that's major losses at retail - so they go bankrupt (seen any record stores lately) the list goes on: Tower, Wherehouse, Musicland, etc.; as retail goes under, distribution shrinks, as distributors shrink, they let go of smaller labels (niche genres go first), then the labels let go of artists and lay off employees - the CEO is the last one to get hurt.

Bottomline here, as the overall market shrinks, the overall monetized pies is smaller, and therefore less sales, less profit - and despite what you may here otherwise, the loss at traditional retail isn't being replaced by digital sales - it's being cannibalized by illegal traffic. The difference is huge - if sales are sufficient, then for example there's not enough money to support touring, which in turn further hurts sales.

The sad truth is that as long as the illegal downloading continues, and it will, it's only going to get worse. The possibility for independent artist to make a living at their art full time is disappearing, without the larger avenues of sales, labels are being reduced to boutique size and artist will have to continue to work full time doing other things and go on tour less.

Don't mean to be all doom and gloom here, but these are the facts, coming from within the industry, on the label and artist side of things. We just have to keep fighting the good fight, support what we love, which is great music, spread the word, and hope that somehow we can stop this scourge that is demolishing the music industry, while retaining all this wonderful new technololgy, but in a monetized form - so we can keep on rockin! Thank god for things like ProgPower and this forum and other places like it to bring people who love and support great music together!
Click to expand...



This man knows what he's talking about, I as an artist and as a small record company owner, I can attest to 99% of what he's talking about. I've been in some bands that have been on the brink of breaking through, or at least we thought so, but because of trends changing and the way fans were getting music, we were not able to afford to accept some tour offers, because there just wasn't any money at all, some of them that we were asked to pay to be on, they call this a "buy on"
all the bigger acts have these to help cover their touring costs, so they can make some money on the tour. It's very hard for a group of people that have different circumstances in their lives to have the same resources to draw from and be able to take a month or two from their lives and not make any money or even pay out of their own pockets great sums of money to play shows. Labels used to help offset tour costs, but they can't afford to do this any longer. Things just don't balance out. There have always been ways of copying music, I for one used to tape friends records when I was a kid, and also tape radio shows that were doing cool full album shows, this isn't any different except for the simplicity and speed at which it's available now. I've been doing my part for quite sometime to give back to the business later in life, this was of course before I was a musician myself ; )

I have a theory if downloaders would pay to see the bands they've downloaded, it would balance out, this isn't the case as of yet though for metal unless your in Brazil and other third world countries where physical sales are pathetic, but amazingly there are several thousands of people at metal shows.....

Sales figures above are very accurate, for bands "Worldwide" this gives you some indication of what they are for a label like Nightmare for just North America.

This is in fact why I'm doing many different musical projects as an artist, I'm doing music mainly because I love making it, I may as well make as much music as I can, it actually helps me bring in more money and allows me to work with many new creative people that I learn from with each project.

Recording costs, have in fact come down tremendously with the digital age,
this does help to balance things out a little, but still the tables are not balanced, most bands are paying more to make an album than they will ever make on the albums royalties. And that just can't work for too long, you'll have great artists just quit the business because some are not in a position to always loose money on it.

As a label owner, producer and artist, I've seen all sides, many major music retail chains, distributors, and virtually all the mom and pop shops are closing, fewer studios and select producers that can make a good living at this, also only a few labels that are able to balance the books, I continue to do this as a label because I love the music, and I can still make a little money on some of the albums we put out, which help to offset the ones that loose money...... mainly due to what another person said above regarding nitch market fan support, and it is only due to you guys that myself and Nightmare bands and other bands in our market at many different levels are able to continue to do what we do, we thank you and very much appreciate your support on all levels, it is of course a major part of why we continue to make music! :headbang:
 
MEGALOUD said:
Of course, this makes it easier to pin the original offending party,
one upload equals, how many downloads? The number can vary greatly depending on the popularity or curiosity of a group or artist.
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It's really a mote point. Uploaders could be anywhere in the world, and it's unlikely that the Canadians will be pursuing uploaders in India, Honduras, or China. Some countries, notably China, even tend to disregard copywrites and trademarks.
Canada allows for downloads, but charges a special tax/fee on blank CD-R's etc. to compensate musicians and songwriters.

No such tax exists in the US (yet), so there is no compensation and copying is flat out illegal.
 
Magius said:
Canada allows for downloads, but charges a special tax/fee on blank CD-R's etc. to compensate musicians and songwriters.
Click to expand...

This has to be the biggest scam on Planet Earth.

How is this money being split up? Does it really go to artists, or just record companies? (or anywhere but to the Canadian government?) And say some Canadian band releases an album without a label, of course this is going to get downloaded... or artists with albums that aren't even officially released in Canada... why do I get the feeling they aren't seeing a penny of the money generated by this tax?

The big thing though... how many downloaders are burning CDs these days? Isn't the idea to just load up the mp3 player?

And I love the idea of a band making its own release and doing up a homemade version to sell to people for a few bucks and they're paying a piracy tax on their own material.

Someone... please... enlighten me. Where am I missing the point here? :)
 
You'd have to ask musicians who get, or don't get, royalty checks from the Canadian government, but I'd guess you're right in that it isn't very benificial to most artists. At least no more so than ASCAP collecting fees from ProgPower or clubs that play music is to most artists. But in both cases there is at least some compensation, however miniscule to some artists, which is the difference between legal and illegal.
Truth is that most downloading affects the current biggest artists, so they'd be the ones getting the biggest cut of whatever is collected in taxes... assuming the government is actually paying out the royalties.

MP3 players were initally taxed like CD-R's are, but the law was too ambiguous according to a Canadian court. Currently MP3 players are exempt, but the law will probably be revised to include them specifically.

When governments paint with a broad brush everyone pays. Even those who use CD-R's for data and never burned a music CD get to pay the tax. Bureaucracy...
 
St Enigma said:
but don't you think that it's about people becoming overloaded with too much entertainment these days?

:saint:
Click to expand...

Here you go. Never before has there been more to do than at this time. And the primary demographic targeted is the 15 - 35 yr old males which is pretty much the same demo that comprises the lot of music sales. When that audience places emphasis in other areas other than music (i.e. gaming), dollars get stretched & something has to lose. The music industry is the obvious loser.
Yes...d/ling has made an impact, but l'm betting you could see a direct coorelation in loss of music sales versus gains in the gaming industry. l have 15, 19, & 21 yr old nephews that love music (mostly numetal & country), but they will spend hours gaming as opposed to listening to music. They don't d/l...they don't have time for it...too busy staring at a TV screen attached to a PS or Xbox. When l was their ages...l spent hours in front of my stereo just listening...still do.
 
Jim LotFP said:
This has to be the biggest scam on Planet Earth.

How is this money being split up? Does it really go to artists, or just record companies? (or anywhere but to the Canadian government?) And say some Canadian band releases an album without a label, of course this is going to get downloaded... or artists with albums that aren't even officially released in Canada... why do I get the feeling they aren't seeing a penny of the money generated by this tax?

The big thing though... how many downloaders are burning CDs these days? Isn't the idea to just load up the mp3 player?

And I love the idea of a band making its own release and doing up a homemade version to sell to people for a few bucks and they're paying a piracy tax on their own material.

Someone... please... enlighten me. Where am I missing the point here? :)
Click to expand...


Canada has one of the best artist and art's programs in the world, they are exceptionally supportive of the arts and offer grants to most artists of "Canadian content" (meaning you have to have Members that have lived in Canada for a certain amount of time and are legal citizens), as for Musicians, I know they give money for touring and recording, in fact WARMACHINE just asked for a grant to help them offset tour expenses this summer. I would have to assume that much like the US's publishing rights organizations, like ASCAP and BMI these royalties are divided based on other information.
Information of band that are based from, bands enrolled in they're system, and then I'm sure soundscan numbers, airplay, jukebox, legal downloads. numbers, etc...these figures are then broken down into percentages, and split among the artists based on their percentage of action from these known streams of revenue.

Another issue that really has not been brought up here that I feel is HUGELY effecting individual artist album sales and revenue is simply this. WAY MORE RELEASES EVERY WEEK. Progressively every year there are more and more releases, in the 70's and 80's, it increased each year from the labels, in the mid 80's bands began independently releasing stuff, (not to say this wasn't happening before, but rarely...costs for recording and manufacturing a quality product were just too high). it's just progressively gotten cheaper for musicans to make their own music available and so many new technologies for them to get it out, this doesn't mean there is nessesarily any more GOOD music out there, ( although I personally do think there really is a lot more good music being made these days because of Artists ability to take more creative and controling role in their music released ) but most certainly there is A LOT more music to weed through to find what you may like. I think really its just numbers, way more releases and the same amount or probably greater being spent on music, but those dollars are being split between so many different places now, that overall I believe this has a huge effect on the sales figures of each album released.

In the end it sort of all balances out in a weird way, it's just that everything is constantly changing so that artists and labels and the entire music community, need to morph with the changes or they get lost in the dust.
 
I'll touch on another topic regarding illegal downloading that hasn't been mentioned but in passing in this thread. And it is also pertinent to many on this board who lament about bands skipping their cities on tours of the USA (and I woldn't be suprsied if many of them also download music illegally).

I interviewed Jon Schaffer last week to catch up on progress of the new album. A topic that I brought up is how can fans interested in having Iced Earth (or any band for that matter) play a live show in their hometwon influence the band's tour schedule. As IE's new webmaster, I'm continually receiving e-mails for IE to play here or there.

Simply put, the band has little or no input on where the band tours. CD sales monitored by SOUNDSCAN are the overwhelming factor in deciding where a band plays. A band member may instruct their booking agent never to schedule a date at this or that shithole again, but that's about it.

Bottom line is: Increased CD sales for a city = Increased SOUNDSCAN numbers for that city = Increased chances that a promoter will risk spending their own money to host a show in that city and hopefully make a profit. The consequence of fans illegally downloading the music in their city and not buying the disc: Increased illegal downloads in a city = lower CD sales for that city = lower SOUNDSCAN numbers for that city = less incentive for a promoter and booking agency to put on a show in that city.

Local promoters and booking agencies are all focused on SOUNDSCAN numbers for individual cities. If you're a booking agent, and you have a choice of booking a show in a city with 50 (SOUNDSCAN) reported sales, or in a city with 1,000 reported sales, which city do you want to take a risk on? Which city will likely make you more money?

I can imagine that some of you would claim to pay to see a band live even though you didn't pay for their CD (or at least not yet :Smug:). SOUNDSCAN has no way of measuring your good intentions. Legit CD sales and legal downloads are recorded in black and white (or is it green?), intentions aren't. Tours are planned months before the tour actually starts. CD sales recorded by SOUNDSCAN immediately following a new band release are vital in determing tour stops that won't happen until months after the CD is released. If you really like the illegally posted music, then buy the legit CD version sooner rather than later if you want to increase the chances of that band playing in your hometown.

With so much metal available today and with each individual having a limited amount of discretionary income to spend, it's only natural that people are going to turn to illegal filesharing to sample or obtain music. The recording industry will do it's best to stop the illegal file sharing, but it's a battle neither side will ever totally win. In our brave new, "ON DEMAND" world where eveyone wants everything instantly (and for very little cost), the record industry definitely has a big beast to squish and vanquish.
 
This has developed into one of the better discussions I've come across regarding the issue of filesharing...some very good points being made on all sides. Personally, I buy far more albums now because of filesharing than I ever used to...it's allowed me to become very passionate about music (specifically metal), and help support artists that I otherwise would not have heard. So obviously I come out on the pro-filesharing end of the spectrum...I actually wrote a speech on the issue (if anyone is bored enough to read it ;))

The Fiddler said:
Simply put, the band has little or no input on where the band tours. CD sales monitored by SOUNDSCAN are the overwhelming factor in deciding where a band plays. A band member may instruct their booking agent never to schedule a date at this or that shithole again, but that's about it.
Click to expand...
If SoundScan doesn't factor in online sales, or more importantly, where those sales come from, that's quite unfortunate. Most of my purchases are online, and I'm sure many metalheads do the same as our genre isn't always the most available in physical shops.

BTW, congrats on getting the IE webmaster job...lucky bastard :p The site looks great
 
I also buy 90% of my albums online. I also tend to purchase the European releases due to the lag in the US release for most European bands. I'll repurchase the CD once it's released in the US only if it's worthwhile (ie. Nightwish's Once US version featured two b-side tracks and the videos for Nemo & Wish I Had An Angel). I'm an impatient person so I don't want to wait for the US release even if it'll save me money. I'm also someone that does download music but I replace everything with albums. I've downloaded leaked albums that I've had preordered for a month already at the time. For new band purchases, I just can't purchase albums based off of hearing 1 song on myspace or from their website. Too often it turns out I end up only just liking that one song and the rest of the album is a letdown. Also, I occasionally will hold out of buying a CD if I'll be attending their concert so I can purchase it there. That way I figure the band is getting the most money from my album purchase.
 
That's the interesting thing about the Internet. It can be a good thing for both artists and fans alike. At the same time, it can be a bad thing.

We all have discussed the issue of illegal downloads. But about the good things?

Another post discussed ordering CDs online from Europe if a CD is not yet (or won't be) sold by a US vendor. When Evergrey's latest CD came out, I ordered from their website and was shipped directly from Sweden. (I know that they later had US distribution, but I wanted it bad enough that I ordered direct.)

There are just some European CDs that you just cannot get here in the US unless you want to pay megabucks and get it as an import. At the same time, you can get the MP3s of the same music for "free" or next to nothing from those quasi-legal MP3 sites. So I can see why people would do the download thing.

And as I've said before - I won't buy a CD unless I know I'll like the material. In the last year or so, the increased use of bands using MySpace has really helped with this so you can legally sample music. I think if more bands did this, people would be less likely to download to sample the music and more likely to directly buy the CD instead. But, as I said above, distribution is key.

But with the Internet, it is much easier to purchase CDs of niche genres (such as prog or power metal) than ever before.

Bottom line - you have to take the good with the bad.
 
No one could dispute the legality or morality of buying a CD from a band's website no matter where it is. Also there are definately legit European dealers like AOR Heaven. However, the problem with European purchases is the high chance of buying counterfeit or pirated merchandise.
Most of the "quasi-legal" MP3 sites are actually illegal and based in Russia or other Eastern European countries. Some governments simply don't enforce, or blatantly ignore, copyright and trademark law. Supposedly Russia has agreed to shut down these sites as a condition of joining the WTO.

The The Office of the US Trade Representative (USTR) maintains a file known as the Special 301 List which tracks and reports intellectual property rights (IPR) violations. China is the number one violator, but Russia and Baltic States like Belarus and Lithuania are high on the list too. Lithuania has or at least had an operating CD factory which prints and exports counterfeits.

I've ended up with a few discs from eBay sellers that have "Not to be sold outside of Russia, CIS & Baltic States" clearly printed on them. Interestingly enough these disks were listed as being in places like England or Finland on the auction, but were mailed from Belarus or Russia.

I like to think that these discs are legit, since it doesn't seem cost effective to pirate a CD that would probably only sell 10,000 copies worldwide. However, I try to avoid eBay unless I can't find a CD anywhere else.
 
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