Cheap 100W heads vs Expensive 100W heads

[chrisjmp]

I tend to think of the power ratings on guitar amps of how much clean headroom you have, not necessarily how much overall volume it puts out. Supposedly some of the little 15 watt heads can get loud as fuck. In my first band, I played a 100 watt Jcm900 and the other guitar player had a 50 watt Sovtek, and his amp seemed like twice as loud as mine set to similar volumes

 

[sprack]

There is not a £1700 delta between those two amps in component cost.

Components.

Cheaper amps use cheaper components. These components are more liable to break, and are made from inferior materials. This doesn't mean that cheaper amps are more unreliable... not saying that. But there is certainly a reason why a Valveking costs approximately £300, and a Mesa Boogie Dual Rect costs nearer to £2000.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Uhh, yeah, that definitely sounds like somethings amiss dude, old Marshalls are supposed to be deafening

They are, I have heard that head in person and it's loud as fuck.

 

[AHChris]

Don´t fall for "more watt = more loud"
I can jam with my drummer (and he hits not like a pussy) with my 5w blackstar over a 4x12. Of course the Blackstar drowns as soon as there is a Bass or a second guitar. But just one guitar and drumset = fine.

You don´t need to have 100w or more. I rehearse with my Mesa and I have to set the master volume not even to 3/10. Most (quality) 100w amps turned to 10 will make the drumset almost inaudible^^

 

[dmmi]

It's jam weekend, so I'll try boosting the mids this weekend as someone suggested.

Also note that both 2x12's I use are on opposite sides of the room pointing at different angles.......would you guys suggest stacking them to get more of the sound pressure level effect?

Also could you guys recommend some cheaper heads and cabs?
lastly, my crate flexwave can operate as a head....would you recommend getting a cab for it?
- and which budget cab would be good (enough for my needs)

 

[nwright]

There are waaay too many factors at play to point to one source being the true culprit if you look at this in a general sense. Speaker efficiency is one aspect, the type of amp the other. With tube amps, the volume output can change wildly for similarly rated amps, and I'd say the big reason for that is how the amp is biased and through what kind of speakers (and how many) the sound is coming from. An easy example is a 5150 without a bias mod vs. a 5150 WITH a bias mod. A cold bias stock 5150 will be a LOT quieter at the same knob position as a 5150 with a hot bias, because more current is being supplied to the amp with the hotter bias...But, both are still "120 watt amps" and both use 4 6L6 tubes.

In the case of solid state amps, each manufacturer can measure and state power rating a bit differently from one to another, such as using "120 RMS" as an amps rating, or just "120 watts"...Which could mean RMS or peak.

Now, add to all this the speakers and their effeciency rating...Something like a Celestion Vintage 30 will no doubt probably have a better sensitivity rating than a cheap low quality speaker. Say a V30 has a sensitivity rating of 101dB @ 1 watt at 1 meter...A cheaper quality speaker may only have a 98dB sensitivity @ 1 watt @ 1meter. 3dB is perceived as twice as loud to the ear...so even 2 speakers both rated at 100 watts are heard, the one with greater sensitivity will be louder...This is assuming the power rating for each utilize the same measurement methods.

In your specific case, I'd equate your issues to the quality/price of your amps. To be honest, both amps are cheap, lower quality amps that are no doubt driving cheap, low quality speakers. And, the cabs you are using I would assume match the quality/price point of the amps, so again it's more than likely cheap speakers. Whichever amp/speaker combination is louder is more than likely due to the wattage ratings and speaker sensitivities used in the louder setup to be advantageous to your overall volume level.

If you want a budget cab, I say:
1.) buy used
2.) Make sure it has decent speakers in it

Something like a used Avatar cab with some type of quality Celestion speakers (Avatars commonly come with Celestions). Or something used with quality Eminence speakers (Eminence makes a lot of different speakers, some of which are cheapies).

If you could find a deal on a decent 4x12 with some WareHouse Speakers, that may be good, too. Warehouse Speakers makes a killer V30 clone (I actually like the Warehouse clone better than the original).

If I were looking to buy a low cost setup that I felt would adequately meet my needs, I'd personally look at something like Peavey Valveking and an Avatar vintage 4x12 with Celestion Vintage 30's, preferably buying both the head and cab used. If bought new, you'd probably be looking right at 1000 for both, and maybe 500-700 for both used? I don't really know current market pricing on these items used.

Also, the new Jet City 100 watt head looks interesting (Soldano designed), but it's cost new is around 800 US.

Finally, in terms of cheap vs. expensive amp heads, I would wager that in this scenario - in terms of tube amps - it will be country of manufacture and the quality/price of the components to be the difference in price, not necessarily guaranteeing the cheaper one to be quieter through the same cab - assuming both tube heads are biased the same and use the same tubes, ohm load, etc. which would be the best way to truly compare.

P.S. I'd also add that your disclaimer that tone isn't as important as volume may be self defeating. As you try to EQ the amps to sound the way you want, you may be taxing the amp beyond it limits and reducing the amps power/output by doing so (like trying to run too much low end or something). Finding an amp that is voiced the way you like that sits in your band mix well can go a long way. It's not always about power/volume.

 

[dmmi]

Wow....Thanks! Haha...ya I know my amps are cheap!

Note that the Tone statement was generalized to try to get my point across.....I wanted to avoid "Oh you NEED a dual rec" type thing.....

So:

What about this:
http://www.long-mcquade.com/products/7788/Guitars/Guitar_Amps/Marshall/MG412_Slanted_4x12_Cab.htm

Says Celestion?

Or
http://www.axemusic.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=41&P_ID=23359&PT_ID=47

Or
http://www.axemusic.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=43&P_ID=4722&PT_ID=47

The line 6 says Celestion as well.....however both are "custom" which could mean anything

OR
http://www.axemusic.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=46&P_ID=4900&PT_ID=47

OR
http://www.axemusic.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=47&P_ID=14326&PT_ID=47

OR
http://www.axemusic.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=54&P_ID=12549&PT_ID=47

OR even this for my crate:
http://www.axemusic.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=51&P_ID=16340&PT_ID=47

Thanks for the help guys!!

 

[dmmi]

I could possibly just change out the speakers in my 2x12's.....so could anyone suggest some decent budget speakers

Here is a link:
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/navigation/amplifier-parts-accessories?N=100001+336909&Ns=P_Price|0&Ntk=All&Ntt=speakers&Nty=1&page=2&rpp=60

 

[John_C]

Style of music? settings?

Mids get heard, use them

 

[SickBoy]

well, some heads are just louder than others, mostly due to the voicing i guess (not too knowledgeable on the further tech details....). my 100w jcm800 marshall for example is probably the loudest amp i've ever owned, it completely slays e.g. the engl powerball.

Maybe it's more due to multiple gain stages... Like, the simpler the amp, the more inputted signal reaches the power amp. And JCM800 is pretty basic in its design and the sound has much more dynamics going on than on heavily distorted sounds of modern hi-gain amps, so when you strike the strings hardly you'll feel it not just in the sound character but in sound level as well. Maybe that's why Plexis and Hiwatts are perceived as loud as hell amps (unfortunately haven't got experience with those...)
But then again - were you comparing them with channel volume on Powerball to the max?

I've actually managed to play my Engl Blackmore on 10 once (clean channel and master volume to max) and it was earsplittingly loud, the sound was so sweet and crunchy

 

[AHChris]

I think the best budget cab you can get is the Harley Benton G412A Vintage.

 

[dmmi]

Style is Modern metal mixed with old school. I try to achieve tone similar to Throwdown, Mnemic, Pro-Pain, Slayer, Lamb of God...etc.

I picked up a Crate Slant Cab last night because my FW120 (2x12) can also operate as a head....the only problem is wiring is in series, so the 2x12's are still going. So at high volumes while the cab is super clear (and great budget tone I might add) the 2x12's are distorting ....so finding a good blend between natural distortion and "setting" distortion is next to impossible.

I think I'm going to sell it and buy the head (FW120H) and the straight cab because it really does have decent tone and volume for a budget setup.

Thanks guys!

 

[dmmi]

So I returned the Crate Cab last night and picked up a Peavey Vavleking head and Peavey Supreme XL cab. I'm going to sell my Fender FM212R and Crate FW120 to brake somewhat even. The crate did have good tone (believe it or not), but it didn't have power.....and I NEED power.

Really happy with the valve king (for my price range).

Cheer Guys! (any recommendations for the VK is appreciated.....I'm getting a boost pedal after work for it too......STOKED!!!!!!)