Cheiron's Reviews

Cheiron

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Jan 11, 2006
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(edit by JimLotFP: I moved this into its own thread because it was off the point of Scum and well into its own topic... might as well really make it its own topic!)

Some of my interest is because I am writing reviews. Did a review for All that Remains yesterday. Talk about a hard review to write. Another band with 'young' guitarists that can really play. But is it metal? Quality anybody can say. Though often I hear people say 'that's shit' just because they don't consider it metal, with no real thought of well... is it good on its own.

Its almost a new form of metal (not to be confused with nu-metal). Perhaps its a newer form or Hard Rock instead. Like Whitesnake, or White Lion just with harsher vocals. I don't know People called Pantera Hard rock too (they called themselves hard rock), what the fuck do I know.

All I try to do with reviews is give people information so that they can decide if the want to buy it or not. I don't say 'I wouldn't buy it' because what if its in a genre I don't like. What use is my opinion then?

((And yeah. DVD reviews? Great. I know its just an advertisement then. So I'm not writing one till I figure out how to do it without it merely being an advertisement that it exists)).
 
Cheiron said:
Though often I hear people say 'that's shit' just because they don't consider it metal, with no real thought of well... is it good on its own.
My point exactly, but everytime I state something like this I'm accused of 'not caring'. Well, I do care. I just think purism and genre-snobbery are mostly nonsense. Especially if the actual quality of something isn't taken into consideration first.
 
Cheiron said:
All I try to do with reviews is give people information so that they can decide if the want to buy it or not
You will go far in this business, my friend.

Why not write about athletic shoes, absorbant diapers or awesome vacuums if that is all you are attempting to accomplish? It is this attitude and shallow ideal that makes the major metal glossies little more than "lifestyle" magazines that are interchangable with any other you can find on the racks at a bookstore.

Modern Dog, Modern Bride, Modern Motorcycle, Modern Microwave or Modern Metal--all are merely admen and adwomen claiming to be "journalists" writing for an advertising circular which poses as a "periodical."

So where can I read some of your work that you have been claiming to create around these parts of late? Maybe your advice to buy the latest and greatest Trivium model to roll off the product line will really make me think and change my mind about some things.
 
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Dave, I'm not interested in your critical review of actual reviews that I've written, at least not in a public way where its directly linked to my identity. Hell I'm new at it, and while I spend a lot of time reading about metal, and listening to albums (I listen to a variety for context, and enjoyment), I'm still learning. I've considered opening up a site that is more in depth on metal, and isn't just about latest album reviews. But one of the reasons that I got into it, was that I wasn't enjoying a lot of the reviews out there, because the prose rarely matched well with the rating. So that is what I'm working on, and of yet, I don't think I'm accomplishing my goal well. If you really want to read some of what I've written, feel free to PM me. I'll give you the links to the last few. And tell me please, what is your goal when writing a review?

Yes, there are a lot of magazines, and e-zines out there which focus on reviewing albums, and perhaps some interviews to get in more depth with artists, what they are about, who they are, etc. Is this so bad? It gives a variety of perspectives on albums, a variety of viewpoints on the good and bad of albums, and metal.

If I was merely a 'admen' then I should not be having negative ads right? The main problem with some sites is that they are afraid of writing negative reviews, because then the labels might not send them more CDs.

And no I haven't written a review for Trivium.

Just so you know I'm considering starting a site, which has little focus on album reviews (if any), and instead is more focused on writing about heavy metal.
 
Cheiron said:
Dave, I'm not interested in your critical review of actual reviews that I've written, at least not in a public way where its directly linked to my identity.

That's confidence.

Cheiron said:
I'm still learning.

This is weak. You are ALWAYS still learning, whether you started this yesterday or twenty years ago. How will you improve if you don't want comments on your work? What's the worse that's going to happen if you direct us to your work? People typing mean things over the internet at you?
 
I do have some comments but I have other things to get to and I don't want to make snipey or ill-thought out statements here so I'll wait until I have some time. Just wanted to let you know you aren't just getting crickets after putting the links up.
 
Btw. My name is Scott Borre. I noticed on a couple of these, that I was the second reviewer for the album. So just to be clear.

Heh. Funny to reread some after a few weeks. Perhaps I should write my reviews, let them sit a week, and then revisit. Some I really don't like the writing.
 
BenMech said:
FINALLY, a name to put to the handle.

I read the Terrorizer review so far, and was less than enthused to look at more . . .

Thanks Ben for the critical feedback. What don't you like about that one?

And yes, I posted here not to say, 'Hey look at my -great- writing.' I really don't think I'm good yet, but you can't get good without practice, and some critical review. So the critical review part is why I'm posting these.
 
Cheiron said:
Dave, I'm not interested in your critical review of actual reviews that I've written, at least not in a public way where its directly linked to my identity.
I was not really planning on doing that, Scott. Just asking in an abrasive manner since the statement about informing the consumer of a worthwhile purchase was so blatant and bold. I'm not in a real combative mood right now, and I haven't had a chance to look at the reviews yet besides.

Cheiron said:
Perhaps I should write my reviews, let them sit a week, and then revisit. Some I really don't like the writing.
You should always do this in some shape or form. Setting it aside for awhile and then looking at a piece of writing through alien or new eyes is always a good idea.

Some of my earlier reviews could have benefited from this, but I was so excitied at having found myself writing about metal (for a whole host of reasons) that I tried to get things out there as quick as possible. Then there is the doing all this on stolen time due to other pressing obligations pressing down on me factor that sometimes forces me to stop something before I should.

edit: I'm not dodging the purpose question you posed, and will get around to it eventually.

Jim, of course, has the luxury of already doing this.
 
I wrote my reply before heading off on my workday, hense the lack of detail.

Anyway, a proper review can only be 7-13% plot summary or historical background. The rest must follow these rules:

1) explain why YOU think this exists. Why now, as opposed to another point of time.
2) explain with three detailed examples why it appeals to you or does not.
3) explain 3 PLAUSIBLE scenarios of where the band can go from the conclusion of the album.
 
First, questions:

What is your reason for reviewing albums?

How do you decide which albums to review?

Who are you hoping will read your reviews?

How many times do you listen to an album, in its entirety, before writing anything about it?

Who are your Heroes of Album Reviewing? The people that you read that make you jealous because you want to be able to make people react to your writing the way you do to theirs?

What are your thoughts on these "Commandments of Album Reviewing"?

Always directly judge a CD's quality in a review.

Your individual perception of what music is and what it should sound like is your most powerful resource when reviewing.

If the purpose of an album review is to "give people information so that they can decide if the want to buy it or not" (which I actually agree with, with asterisks as found in Scum section 30)... how tight is your judgement noose? What kind of annual budget do you expect your readers to have? (shouldn't you think of that when deciding how many albums you give a thumbs up to?)

Now for your reviews specifically...

The Terrorizer review... are you familiar with World Downfall? For how long? Some of your wording here sounds like a press release... I suspect you're either just taking someone else's word that World Downfall was a "classic" or projecting something you know to be true to certain people as your own opinion. There's just that kind of "unattached" feel in your writing concerning this band.

The Time Symmetry review highlights most of the problems I have with your reviews. "This album also has good lyrics..." but you never go on about what they lyrics are about, why you like them, or anything concerning them at all. You do this a lot in your reviews... you give an opinion and then drop the subject to go on to the next factoid/opinionoid like you're writing a school paper and just wanting to cover the subject enough to get a passing grade. Very dry reads.

I wish someone would crunch my reviews apart like this. I'd hate it and resist the advice at first, but somehow the next batch of reviews I wrote would reflect the criticism I felt was valid. heh.
 
Jim LotFP said:
First, questions:

What is your reason for reviewing albums?

A good question. Several reasons. I enjoy metal, I enjoy talking about metal, I enjoy writing, thought I'd enjoy writing about metal in a more formal way, thought about doing it on my own, but decided to inquire at other review sites first. I honestly had no idea what I was getting myself into. I didn't know if I'd get free CDs to review or not. And if I got CDs to review, I didn't know if I'd get to keep them or have to return them. I really had no idea how it all worked. I also thought that it would be a good way for me to learn more about metal. Lastly, I thought I could add something to reviews, write reviews that I would really like to read. I haven't accomplished that yet. Working on it.

How do you decide which albums to review?

I try to review all of the albums that are sent to me by the main hauncho at SoT. I've only reviewed one of the albums that I've bought. Plan to do more, but I want to get the others done first.

Who are you hoping will read your reviews?
People that visit the site anyhow. I respected SoT, that's why I asked if I could write for them. That said, people that are wondering if they should buy the album or not. People looking for information on albums that they can't find in magazine reviews such as BW&BK, or biased, sarcastic, fanboy reviews from places like blabbermouth.

How many times do you listen to an album, in its entirety, before writing anything about it?

I don't have a number. I consider 3 major events of listening though. First thoughts (always important), comfortable thoughts (after at least 3 listens, usually ends when I feel comfortable with my feelings on the album), lasting thoughts (coming back to it a week later. Longer would probably be preferable. Sometimes its a month later.). And I do recognize that if you listen to it a bajillion times you'll probably have some different feelings than 1/2 bajillion times. Though perhaps I should listen to them more than I do. I'll have to think on it. I know some people seem to not post on their feelings of an album until they've listened to it a dozen times. Other people who listen to an album will listen to it once, and if they don't like it, they don't like it. Some others will hate an album at first and a year or two later of listening to it, find that they love it beyond belief. This is a hard area. How much is enough to write a review?

Who are your Heroes of Album Reviewing? The people that you read that make you jealous because you want to be able to make people react to your writing the way you do to theirs?

I do like a number of the writers on SoT. Pardo I think writes some excellent reviews. I haven't followed writers on other sites, as much as 'sites' in general. But again, one reason I got into this, is because a lot of reviews out there I plainly did not like.

Though, some of the reviews I've read at www.wrekage.org, are pretty damn incredible (mostly the ones that Greg has done). The guys there have an insane amount of knowledge about metal, history, and can write really well. Though I don't always agree with them. But I guess like Roger Ebert, the best part about them is I know what they like, and can make judgements based on their writings if I'd like something or not.

Can't say I've read any reviews on this site as of yet. A lot of e-zines out there seem focused on reviewing every album released, and thus underreviewing them all. I often can't tell by the end of their review, why they gave the score to the album that they did. And honestly, right now I rely on listening to available songs on bands Web sites, and listening to some people I know. Makes you wonder if anybody -really- makes decisions based on review sites at all.

What are your thoughts on these "Commandments of Album Reviewing"?

Always directly judge a CD's quality in a review.

I agree with this one. Zen at the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is a book that gave me a mind fuck. But what use is a review of there is no discussion of its quality?

Your individual perception of what music is and what it should sound like is your most powerful resource when reviewing.

Half agree. Probably should agree more. I argue with myself about this a lot. So I'm not completely sure yet. If you only obey your own musical tastes, perhaps you do a disservice to others who have different tastes, and thus find nothing useful out of your review. But perhaps this is in like with pop-culture too much. By trying to cater to the masses, you only feed the masses, and fail to service those who are not among the masses. I think reviewers tend to want many to listen to them and like their review. Again a pop-culture viewpoint. Perhaps by giving a review that is focused on ones individual perception is the key, because otherwise you aren't being honest. Statements like 'While I didn't like this, fans of X and Y might enjoy this.' Its a true statement. It does cater to others, but it doesn't violate ones own opinion. Its an offering for others. Generally that is what I think I try to do. Offer my own perception, but recognize there are others and try to give them something to consider. I'll be continuing to rethink how I approach this.

If the purpose of an album review is to "give people information so that they can decide if the want to buy it or not" (which I actually agree with, with asterisks as found in Scum section 30)... how tight is your judgement noose? What kind of annual budget do you expect your readers to have? (shouldn't you think of that when deciding how many albums you give a thumbs up to?)

Isn't that the purpose of a rating number? Its not just a thumbs up or thumbs down. All readers have different budgets. Is a 3/5 worth it to you? 3/5 for me, means that its alright, no real lasting power, looking for something better. I wouldn't buy it. Others might. Same with movie reviews. Its not just about an absolute money/time investment, its all relative. So we can only give people information so that they can use their own judgement. But yes, if a person can afford 5 albums in a year, they might only want to get those that reviews indicate are excellent albums in a genre that they love.

Now for your reviews specifically...

The Terrorizer review... are you familiar with World Downfall? For how long? Some of your wording here sounds like a press release... I suspect you're either just taking someone else's word that World Downfall was a "classic" or projecting something you know to be true to certain people as your own opinion. There's just that kind of "unattached" feel in your writing concerning this band.

I'm familiar with it. But I wasn't familiar with it till after I got the sophmore album. I'm sure I'm not the only one that sometimes gets albums from bands they've never listened to before. Maybe I should send those back. I don't know. Its something I think about. But if we aren't allowed to read about history to judge the present, we are at a loss. As for a classic, my wording was shotty here. I should have stated that it is generally viewed as a classic by fans of the grindcore genre. Way I wrote it made it sound like I thought the album was a classic. Either way, I didn't just follow a press release. I read about the band, about World Downfall, read reviews for it, what other bands said about Terrorizer, etc.

I agree it was unattached. My problem with it was that I had fun with the album. I enjoyed listening to it, even though its not my favorite genre. But people reading that review most likely would be fans of 'World Downfall' I doubt many are going to buy that album that haven't listened to the previous. So I was trying to give an indicate of, 'is it on the same level, will it hit me the same way," for the reader. And my review was stating that it won't. But if you don't give a shit if its going to, and just want a grindcore/death album to listen to, then its good, but not great. And the next statement probably gets more into it.


The Time Symmetry review highlights most of the problems I have with your reviews. "This album also has good lyrics..." but you never go on about what they lyrics are about, why you like them, or anything concerning them at all. You do this a lot in your reviews... you give an opinion and then drop the subject to go on to the next factoid/opinionoid like you're writing a school paper and just wanting to cover the subject enough to get a passing grade. Very dry reads.

Point taken. Will work on that.

I think that this leads to a fear I have. A fear of being 'wrong.' I'm worried about people just coming out and saying, "You don't know what you are talking about," and thus ruining any reputation. Partly why I've been 'quiet' with my reviews, I don't think I'm taking the risks that I should be taking, and so for example really digging into what I like about those lyrics. But obviously I haven't been happy with my reviews, hence the searching for into on how to write them better. Either way, its made me trying to write 'safe' and thus dry. Thanks for the feedback. Feel free to respond to whatever, and even give me advice on areas you see me struggling with (either in writing, or in these replies).
 
Cheiron said:
I think that this leads to a fear I have. A fear of being 'wrong.' I'm worried about people just coming out and saying, "You don't know what you are talking about," and thus ruining any reputation. Partly why I've been 'quiet' with my reviews, I don't think I'm taking the risks that I should be taking, and so for example really digging into what I like about those lyrics. But obviously I haven't been happy with my reviews, hence the searching for into on how to write them better. Either way, its made me trying to write 'safe' and thus dry. Thanks for the feedback. Feel free to respond to whatever, and even give me advice on areas you see me struggling with (either in writing, or in these replies).

Understood. People still give me shit over my first issues, and I certainly can't read a single review without cringing. It sucks. Most of the criticism was valid.

Yet the positive reaction back then was overwhelming. Obviously something I was doing was right, as I got tons of comments from people pointing out reviews and wondering why nobody else said that, or they've never seen something that way, or just encouraging things. The writing was often ill-informed, oddly structures, and completely immature, yet there was real emotion and honesty in there. There are people still renewing subscriptions in 2006 that were reading LotFP's first issues when they came out.

The best thing was the people who saw that energy in it, and also saw the huge problems, and helped. Pointed out holes in my knowledge, holes in my logic. It still happens. It's embarassing as all fuck, but it also makes you a better writer.

The point is, fuck everyone else. Fuck em. Writing a safe review is like writing a safe album... it's goddamn pointless, doesn't do anybody any good, and nobody should be subjected to it.

My advice: Choose the next couple of albums you want to review. Ignore those "sent" to you unless one catches your fancy. Make sure they give you ideas for your writing before choosing them. And then put your balls on the chopping block, go wild, and see what happens. I guarantee that the site you write for will love one well-written review more than 10 bllaahhh reviews. (if they don't, quit writing for them) As far as worrying about being sent albums that you ignore... well... sometimes silence is the best review. And if they really gave a shit about those albums they wouldn't have sent them away in the first place.