Congratulations America
- Thread starter IRoN
- Start date
Anssi
The Journalist
Yea... I just wonder if there´s a same kind of holocaust happening in Afghanistan, as there was in Panama a bit over ten years ago.
Go USA go!
Kill em all. That´s the just cause...
right....
Go USA go!
Kill em all. That´s the just cause...
right....
mr. tokmak
Wizard of Your Family
Evilho
Daddy
I have no problem with the USA attacking the Taliban. But to bomb UN people there by accident, that's incredible
tcall
WAAaaaaaaaAAAAaaa!!
Russell
__
Slash Freeman
Iron Maiden obsessive
eh? what have they done now? I know they've started bombing, but what have they hit?!
btw, would any of you agree that this would have been better done with special forces like the SAS or the Navy SEALS? by being far more surgical in who they attack they would a)cut down the risk of innocent lives being lost and b) it would mean that Terrorist groups would have one less greivance against the west. they always go on about how they bomb people from afar but never get into the close quarters combat, why not prove them wrong?
i have to say that i agree something should be done, but whether or not they're doing it in the right way i'm not sure.
btw, would any of you agree that this would have been better done with special forces like the SAS or the Navy SEALS? by being far more surgical in who they attack they would a)cut down the risk of innocent lives being lost and b) it would mean that Terrorist groups would have one less greivance against the west. they always go on about how they bomb people from afar but never get into the close quarters combat, why not prove them wrong?
i have to say that i agree something should be done, but whether or not they're doing it in the right way i'm not sure.
Russell
__
Thats already being done, I think they need to reasure the public by giving a show of strength kinda thing
The USA now acts as the plaintiff, the attorney, the judge, the prosecutor and the executioner - all in one place. This is not far away from what you'll find when you look up for the definition of the term "terrorism".
This all has turned into a military training with real targets now, some stupid masturbation that costs lives. The entire campaign has lost its focus, it's just power play now. Instead of an effective search for the criminals, the USA delivers more crime with the make-up of justice, and I believe this is the ugliest of all insults to the lost souls of the tower assault.
Last comment I heard from a US official today was a "harsh warning" to Iran, advising them not to make use of the war by threatening their neighbors. This is ridiculously ironic in more than one aspect.
Well, the best of luck to the heroic forces that bomb the Afghan lands right now... One wonders how brave they would have been if the "foe" were China.
This all has turned into a military training with real targets now, some stupid masturbation that costs lives. The entire campaign has lost its focus, it's just power play now. Instead of an effective search for the criminals, the USA delivers more crime with the make-up of justice, and I believe this is the ugliest of all insults to the lost souls of the tower assault.
Last comment I heard from a US official today was a "harsh warning" to Iran, advising them not to make use of the war by threatening their neighbors. This is ridiculously ironic in more than one aspect.
Well, the best of luck to the heroic forces that bomb the Afghan lands right now... One wonders how brave they would have been if the "foe" were China.
Slynt
Lord and Liar
mr. tokmak
Wizard of Your Family
They're telling that they have the control of Afghanistan air.
Btw what air force does Afghans have?
They're only enjoying themselves with bombing and they wanna give prestige to their country.
But when land war won't be easy.
Russians have lost 1500 special commandos in a week in the war.
We'll see what will happen.
Btw what air force does Afghans have?
They're only enjoying themselves with bombing and they wanna give prestige to their country.
But when land war won't be easy.
Russians have lost 1500 special commandos in a week in the war.
We'll see what will happen.
What should they have done???
Please read the 7th post on this thread, it'll give you an idea.
If everyone declared war for undelivered criminals, we would have lived through WWIII, IV, and V.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but... well... Up the Afghans!
Please read the 7th post on this thread, it'll give you an idea.
If everyone declared war for undelivered criminals, we would have lived through WWIII, IV, and V.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but... well... Up the Afghans!
Eclipse
Red Knight
I'll try to express my thoughts on some bb-issues from the last few weeks with a little schematic:
women<------------------------------------------------->rational
Belgium<---------------/Turkey/--------------->The Planet Mars
black<----------------------------/life/---------------------->white
black<---------------------/politics/------------------->dark grey
women<------------------------------------------------->rational
Belgium<---------------/Turkey/--------------->The Planet Mars
black<----------------------------/life/---------------------->white
black<---------------------/politics/------------------->dark grey
Eclipse
Red Knight
Hey wait, you forgot this one too:
Man <--------------/jan/-------------->Ape
(Remember my friend: 2-0)
Man <--------------/jan/-------------->Ape
(Remember my friend: 2-0)
I don't particularly like the bombing strikes, but there isn't much of an alternative.
A few facts to remember:
1. They declared war on the US, not the other way around.
2. Even if the US didn't retaliate, they'd still attack again. A "Now, now, that's not a nice thing to do" isn't gonna get the US anywhere in this war.
3. A ground strike, though a good show of "bravery", is pretty useless. The losses would be horrific, and the results would be the same in the end. The terrain is very rough, to say the least, and the terrorists are familiar with it; only a small portion of the population is terroristic, which means they can use the civilians as human shields, and I doubt they'd not stoop to that. This is war, people. They would kill the US soldiers, the US soldiers would kill them, and in the end I suspect Afganistan would end up being a very large parking lot for Pakistan. And do you think that a "surgical strike", using SEALS or any other elite force would really work? I could be wrong on this, but I don't really think any of you people have the military experience to deny this: the logistics of any ground-based strike, no matter how surgical in nature, DO NOT WORK. Now, if you can prove that such a strike would work, then I will stand corrected. Until then, remember that the US cannot do nothing and this is the most viable course of action anyone has yet to think of....
I'm a pacifist, but I can't come up with a good alternative. I've thought of this from every angle I can imagine, I've read articles written by Afganistans from their point of view, as well as what most Americans see on the media. I have tried to think of a better solution, but I haven't come up with one that is at once more humane and more tactically viable. In the end, this is still war. In the end, the US cannot allow these attacks to continue. And in the end, I ran out of good alternatives that don't involve changing the past.
This whole mess seems to me to be a 'sins of the fathers' scenario, with elements building up to it from many different events in the past. We of the present can't change what happened in the past very well.... so what do we do?
A few facts to remember:
1. They declared war on the US, not the other way around.
2. Even if the US didn't retaliate, they'd still attack again. A "Now, now, that's not a nice thing to do" isn't gonna get the US anywhere in this war.
3. A ground strike, though a good show of "bravery", is pretty useless. The losses would be horrific, and the results would be the same in the end. The terrain is very rough, to say the least, and the terrorists are familiar with it; only a small portion of the population is terroristic, which means they can use the civilians as human shields, and I doubt they'd not stoop to that. This is war, people. They would kill the US soldiers, the US soldiers would kill them, and in the end I suspect Afganistan would end up being a very large parking lot for Pakistan. And do you think that a "surgical strike", using SEALS or any other elite force would really work? I could be wrong on this, but I don't really think any of you people have the military experience to deny this: the logistics of any ground-based strike, no matter how surgical in nature, DO NOT WORK. Now, if you can prove that such a strike would work, then I will stand corrected. Until then, remember that the US cannot do nothing and this is the most viable course of action anyone has yet to think of....
I'm a pacifist, but I can't come up with a good alternative. I've thought of this from every angle I can imagine, I've read articles written by Afganistans from their point of view, as well as what most Americans see on the media. I have tried to think of a better solution, but I haven't come up with one that is at once more humane and more tactically viable. In the end, this is still war. In the end, the US cannot allow these attacks to continue. And in the end, I ran out of good alternatives that don't involve changing the past.
This whole mess seems to me to be a 'sins of the fathers' scenario, with elements building up to it from many different events in the past. We of the present can't change what happened in the past very well.... so what do we do?
Drexle
Vinterholic
- Sep 15, 2001
- 203
- 0
- 16
So in Turkey, do the police just shrug their shoulders if a suspected criminal is being hidden away by someone? Or do they do everything they can to get the suspect in custody? The Taliban has refused to hand Bin Ladin over *how many times?* They keep telling the US to fuck off, essentially. Do your civilian police take well to being told "Fuck off?" Why would you expect any different from something on a more international level?
Flying planes into buildings populated with thousands of civilians is an act of war, plain and simple. If Osama or his underlings were behind it, and the Taliban wants to actively defend him and his underlings, then they will pay the same concequences. If he *wasn't* behind it, then why would he stay hidden? Why not face trial if he and his government backers are so sure of his innocence? I guess they're so used to their own form of "fair trial" that they're afraid of facing someone else's.
And finally, our airforce isn't trying to intentionally target 100% civilians... *unlike* the 9/11 attack.
Iron, perhaps I lack the perspective you're coming from but it's plain to see that you lack ours as well since you seem to be so callous now that you've stooped to making jokes about the murder of thousands. I certainly don't wish for any innocent Afghanis to die. I have empathy for innocent civilians of all nationalities, since I happen to be one myself... I would very much hate to be in the line of fire for something my government did to piss someone off, especially since I don't feel well represented by them (my prefered candidates are almost never elected). I also, however, fail to see how you can go through a war without civilian death regardless of how "precice" or "surgical" a strike may be... and once again, if the knowing and intentional physical slaughter of thousands of civilians isn't an act of war, then I don't know what is.
Flying planes into buildings populated with thousands of civilians is an act of war, plain and simple. If Osama or his underlings were behind it, and the Taliban wants to actively defend him and his underlings, then they will pay the same concequences. If he *wasn't* behind it, then why would he stay hidden? Why not face trial if he and his government backers are so sure of his innocence? I guess they're so used to their own form of "fair trial" that they're afraid of facing someone else's.
And finally, our airforce isn't trying to intentionally target 100% civilians... *unlike* the 9/11 attack.
Iron, perhaps I lack the perspective you're coming from but it's plain to see that you lack ours as well since you seem to be so callous now that you've stooped to making jokes about the murder of thousands. I certainly don't wish for any innocent Afghanis to die. I have empathy for innocent civilians of all nationalities, since I happen to be one myself... I would very much hate to be in the line of fire for something my government did to piss someone off, especially since I don't feel well represented by them (my prefered candidates are almost never elected). I also, however, fail to see how you can go through a war without civilian death regardless of how "precice" or "surgical" a strike may be... and once again, if the knowing and intentional physical slaughter of thousands of civilians isn't an act of war, then I don't know what is.
Well said, Drexle... I don't think one can refute what you said without straying into the realms of both irrationality and stupidity...
Drexle:
The Turkish police are not heroes, and they do not have nice track records on such issues and I can't say I appreciate the way they handle matters, but they do not shrug their shoulders if a criminal is being hidden away by someone. They do everything they can to get the suspect in custody.
Example:
Turkish police has cooperated with the CIA and Mossad, and has captured Apo (the leader of a 20-year terrorist gang) through an undercover operation. Now tell me, would a declaration of war against South Africa be better? They practically told Turkey to "fuck off", and Turkey simply didn't.
How many fingers does the CIA have right in the heart of Afghanistan? Can't they get Bin Ladin this day if they want to??? The answer is clear, but the master plan is still vague. And that's what I'm complaining about. As Jan has put forth most wisely, politics is somewhere between black and dark grey.
About that really silly joke... Well, it was a JOKE, and it surely wasn't making fun of the death of thousands. It was cynical in that people went commercial, making use of such a disaster as soon as it took place (458 books on the terrorist strike were published within the next 4 days!). I'm sorry if I've hurt the feelings of anyone who has not noticed the irony, but it's too late for me to do anything about it.
If I were that anti-American un-human you think I am, I wouldn't have been the first here to mourn the loss of 11th September.
And remember, I say Up the Afghans, not Up the Talibans. My nation has suffered more than enough of terrorism, and most of it was created by self-righteous bastards like Taliban and their blind followers. I just do not want any more lives to be taken. People of Afghanistan already suffer from cold and hunger, and they did nothing to deserve raining bombs to add on their troubles.
I know I'm lacking your perspective, as empathy is reserved for decent people. I'm just a normal man, and I swear I'm doing my best to get your point. Now if you take any more offense from anything I've typed in this post, I'm awfully sorry, and I promise not to bother you further.
The Turkish police are not heroes, and they do not have nice track records on such issues and I can't say I appreciate the way they handle matters, but they do not shrug their shoulders if a criminal is being hidden away by someone. They do everything they can to get the suspect in custody.
Example:
Turkish police has cooperated with the CIA and Mossad, and has captured Apo (the leader of a 20-year terrorist gang) through an undercover operation. Now tell me, would a declaration of war against South Africa be better? They practically told Turkey to "fuck off", and Turkey simply didn't.
How many fingers does the CIA have right in the heart of Afghanistan? Can't they get Bin Ladin this day if they want to??? The answer is clear, but the master plan is still vague. And that's what I'm complaining about. As Jan has put forth most wisely, politics is somewhere between black and dark grey.
About that really silly joke... Well, it was a JOKE, and it surely wasn't making fun of the death of thousands. It was cynical in that people went commercial, making use of such a disaster as soon as it took place (458 books on the terrorist strike were published within the next 4 days!). I'm sorry if I've hurt the feelings of anyone who has not noticed the irony, but it's too late for me to do anything about it.
If I were that anti-American un-human you think I am, I wouldn't have been the first here to mourn the loss of 11th September.
And remember, I say Up the Afghans, not Up the Talibans. My nation has suffered more than enough of terrorism, and most of it was created by self-righteous bastards like Taliban and their blind followers. I just do not want any more lives to be taken. People of Afghanistan already suffer from cold and hunger, and they did nothing to deserve raining bombs to add on their troubles.
I know I'm lacking your perspective, as empathy is reserved for decent people. I'm just a normal man, and I swear I'm doing my best to get your point. Now if you take any more offense from anything I've typed in this post, I'm awfully sorry, and I promise not to bother you further.
Drexle
Vinterholic
- Sep 15, 2001
- 203
- 0
- 16
I wish I could say I knew more about the CIA's ability to infiltrate organizations... from what I understand, they're in a tough spot here. I've read a lot of articles about how little they have in the way of operatives suitable for work in places like Afganistan, and for infiltration of the Taliban in particular. Personally, I was appaled when I read how lacking some of them admited our capabilities to be. The technology is really good, but the personel just isn't there in great numbers. That could be one reason that a military solution was adopted so quickly... the other being that this *is* a Bush in the White House.
I didn't think you meant "Up the Taliban" when I first read this thread, but I couldn't be so sure when I saw the other.
Actually, I do think it's rather funny how news media can find Bin Ladin any day of the week, but military intelligence doesn't seem to have that same efficiency.
Oh, there's nothing further that I took offense over. I don't really think of myself as "decent," since I'm certain that I disgust people with some of my opinions. As to making jokes about things like this, it's not so bad a thing when you're trying to lighten the mood with humor, and normally I do actually have a grim sense of humor... but putting that deleted thread and this one together just sort of struck a nerve. It felt like more an insult than an attempt at levity.
Edited: 2nd paragraph, because one of the sentences looked like I was smoking crack when I wrote it... *sigh,* I need sleeeeeeeep.
I didn't think you meant "Up the Taliban" when I first read this thread, but I couldn't be so sure when I saw the other.
Actually, I do think it's rather funny how news media can find Bin Ladin any day of the week, but military intelligence doesn't seem to have that same efficiency.
Oh, there's nothing further that I took offense over. I don't really think of myself as "decent," since I'm certain that I disgust people with some of my opinions. As to making jokes about things like this, it's not so bad a thing when you're trying to lighten the mood with humor, and normally I do actually have a grim sense of humor... but putting that deleted thread and this one together just sort of struck a nerve. It felt like more an insult than an attempt at levity.
Edited: 2nd paragraph, because one of the sentences looked like I was smoking crack when I wrote it... *sigh,* I need sleeeeeeeep.
