Continuing Dave

[Zack]

Qoute
nah, i'm not kidding
you're right. nobody wants to be told what to do. and i agree with that. Darth is essentially telling what i see as blatant angry falsehood about my beliefs and in turn tarnishing what it represents. that's why i spoke up. you're free to believe whatever you want.

as for Dave, i think his ego is quite bigger than it should be and he'd be better off if he just played guitar and sang, and never talked otherwise.

i personally don't think religion should be left out of everything because it is a core system in my life, but again, thats me. debates with me will likely involve it in some form. i did suggest this get taken to the philosophy forum because sidetracking a thread isn't cool either.


Yes, I do agree that it is a little to extreme to call a core part of someones faith a "bastard homosexual" but I think rage was blinding him. I think that religion should be seperated, because there are many places where people of one faith can congregate without making it seem like a non-believer is being forced to listen. I really have no problem with religion, unless someone comes knocking on my door telling me whats right and whats wrong. I am also surrounded by diferrent types of religion. My girlfriend is Christian, My Dad is from Iran and practices Islam, but I choose not to follow their beliefs. Whatever floats your boat, may not float mine
-Zack

 

[Kenneth R.]

religion is very much a personal choice. if one person chooses religion A, they should pursue it completely, but not feel compelled to force it upon others. they should pursue it only because they truly believe in it, and for no other reasons. from a strictly conversional view, this is a bad technique as obviously people don't like things forced upon them. if an army takes control of your town, you're likely to not be good hosts. if someone tries to convert you to a religion you didn't seek out on your own, chances are you'd rebel in the same way and that makes little to no real converts. basically, if you want to spread your religion, this is a bad way to do it.

a much more effective and less belligerant way to go about spreading the "good word" is to simply live it out completely in all aspects of life. in this way, people see you as a representation of what it entails and may become interested themselves in following as you have. that, in my opinion, is how conversion should work. it should be a personal, unsolicited choice.

as for Dave Mustaine, i think he has quite the ego that is very un-christian. he should read the passages about pride and greed, and then think about how he lives if he wants to call himself christian. as for his refusal to play on the same stage as satanic bands, that's his choice. personally i would have no issue with it if i were in a christian band or any band really. that's because i have confidence that my music won't be associated with the satanic band, and that my music's message deserves a place on that stage even moreso because of the satanic band. the crowd should see many options and many perspectives. i'd have no problem presenting mine and hope that i perform well enough that they are moved by it. so Dave, get over yourself. cancelling a show because of nonchristian bands playing only diminishes the opportunities to spread your beliefs.

 

[NeverIsForever]

I'll ask the same question here that I asked in the other thread. Silent Song, you said something about religion being, if anything, more necessary now than it used to be?

So how and why do you consider religion "necessary"?

 

[Kenneth R.]

necessary in the sense that in today's information age, information and media present ideas and opinions as if they were fact, and these skewed representations abound now that everyone is connected to TV and the internet. today more than ever, deviance and defiance is popular and accepted as reality. in today's world, science rules over all. fact, logic, and intellect. philosophy the medium by which things are decided. there's nothing wrong with these things, but they are dangerous tools when used deceptively.

not to say that these things haven't existed before, but they have become much more prolific now. and so i say religion and faith have even more importance these days than before. because now people need that guidance and morality that is slowly degrading in our societies. now more than ever, it is socially acceptable to harbor such incredibly immoral views.

i'm not saying everyone has to join the same religion in order to find morality. instead, i argue that the various religions of the world provide guidelines for morality in an overexpanding, overpopulized world in which the individual feels even less significant day by day, and thus becomes likely to do evil because "no one will notice, no one notices me, i am just one of billions". i am christian. i choose christianity because it follows my intrinsic morals, and i agree with it. i follow it because i believe in Jesus Christ and the things he taught. not everyone will, and not everyone has to believe in the same thing i do. our different beliefs make us different people.

i argue that these moral guidelines are necessary today to provide people a model to live by example. the majority likely does not read religious texts daily nor follow every code and law, but the general morality sinks in and they act according to what they find as "good behavior". i believe its a statistic that at least 1 billion of the world's people are catholic. given that, and the number of people who are buddhist, christian, muslim, jew, and whatever else they choose to believe in, i see the absence of religion as a catastrophic effect on the state of societal relations.

 

[Zack]

I'll ask the same question here that I asked in the other thread. Silent Song, you said something about religion being, if anything, more necessary now than it used to be?

So how and why do you consider religion "necessary"?

I think religion is less necessary now than it could've ever been. After all, more people have been killed in the name of god than almost any other cause. Certain religions have had bad leaders, thus giving them a bad global image, and the violence escalates from there. It started out as just "liberating" people, then killing/liberating, then holding hostage/killing/freeing our people, now all out war.

 

[Zack]

necessary in the sense that in today's information age, information and media present ideas and opinions as if they were fact, and these skewed representations abound now that everyone is connected to TV and the internet. today more than ever, deviance and defiance is popular and accepted as reality. in today's world, science rules over all. fact, logic, and intellect. philosophy the medium by which things are decided. there's nothing wrong with these things, but they are dangerous tools when used deceptively.

not to say that these things haven't existed before, but they have become much more prolific now. and so i say religion and faith have even more importance these days than before. because now people need that guidance and morality that is slowly degrading in our societies. now more than ever, it is socially acceptable to harbor such incredibly immoral views.

i'm not saying everyone has to join the same religion in order to find morality. instead, i argue that the various religions of the world provide guidelines for morality in an overexpanding, overpopulized world in which the individual feels even less significant day by day, and thus becomes likely to do evil because "no one will notice, no one notices me, i am just one of billions". i am christian. i choose christianity because it follows my intrinsic morals, and i agree with it. i follow it because i believe in Jesus Christ and the things he taught. not everyone will, and not everyone has to believe in the same thing i do. our different beliefs make us different people.

i argue that these moral guidelines are necessary today to provide people a model to live by example. the majority likely does not read religious texts daily nor follow every code and law, but the general morality sinks in and they act according to what they find as "good behavior". i believe its a statistic that at least 1 billion of the world's people are catholic. given that, and the number of people who are buddhist, christian, muslim, jew, and whatever else they choose to believe in, i see the absence of religion as a catastrophic effect on the state of societal relations.

I don't think we would need religion to guide people along if our society were more opinionated and people didn't base everything on what the TV says. I think it is a good idea that society becomes a big union, but I don't think religion is the best way to do that. In fact, I think seperating religion is the best way. Pretty much all discrepencies between the western world and the eastern is Oil. That will eventually work itself out. Most discrepencies between the countries in the Middle East is religion and land. If people could put that aside then our society would have good morality and there would be relatively no violence.
Yes I know I'm dreaming when I say this, and that asking a civilization that has been around for 3000 years to stop fighting is not going to happen. But I think it would be easier to do that then to ask the whole world to go to a religion. Its pretty much all or nothing in religion, because if 3 billion people have a faith in a higher being, that means the other 3 billion are going to disagree

 

[Kenneth R.]

wars over religion have been occurring since long before the time of Jesus. its hardly a new subject.

and to reiterate my point with this example: do those who strike in the name of God really know and follow what God has taught? i don't believe so. i should clarify what i am saying. when i say religion, i am talking about true religion. not misinterpreted and misused religion. that we have more than enough of.

 

[NeverIsForever]

not to say that these things haven't existed before, but they have become much more prolific now. and so i say religion and faith have even more importance these days than before. because now people need that guidance and morality that is slowly degrading in our societies. now more than ever, it is socially acceptable to harbor such incredibly immoral views.

i'm not saying everyone has to join the same religion in order to find morality. instead, i argue that the various religions of the world provide guidelines for morality in an overexpanding, overpopulized world in which the individual feels even less significant day by day, and thus becomes likely to do evil because "no one will notice, no one notices me, i am just one of billions". i am christian. i choose christianity because it follows my intrinsic morals, and i agree with it. i follow it because i believe in Jesus Christ and the things he taught. not everyone will, and not everyone has to believe in the same thing i do. our different beliefs make us different people.

i argue that these moral guidelines are necessary today to provide people a model to live by example. the majority likely does not read religious texts daily nor follow every code and law, but the general morality sinks in and they act according to what they find as "good behavior". i believe its a statistic that at least 1 billion of the world's people are catholic. given that, and the number of people who are buddhist, christian, muslim, jew, and whatever else they choose to believe in, i see the absence of religion as a catastrophic effect on the state of societal relations.

So you argue that religion is necessary because it provides morality?

True, religion is a source of morality, but it's just that--one possible source. I don't think you necessarily "need" religion in order to be a 'moral' person.

For example, I'm not religious and never have been. Spiritual perhaps, but not religious. I'm deeply skeptical when it comes to organized religion of any variety. But I still think I've got a pretty good handle on the basic concepts of right and wrong, and how to distinguish between the two. And if I didn't--well, that's what laws and the justice system are for. For example, even if I personally believed that there was nothing wrong with killing people, the policeman down the street would no doubt feel differently and I'd be looking at 25 to life in prison if I attempted to act on this belief.

I guess my point is that basic morals are ingrained in society regardless of the presence or absence of religion. Maybe their original roots lay exclusively in religion, but I don't believe that that is the case any longer. Between restrictions written into actual law and things that we simply consider wrong or immoral regardless of their legality, I think you could remove religion from the equation with very little impact resulting from its loss.

 

[Kenneth R.]

maybe i didn't say it carefully enough: i am suggesting not that religion is *the* source of morality, but that it contributes to it in a way that without which, the world would be a less moral, more chaotic place.

 

[NeverIsForever]

Okay, I see your point. I suppose that there are many cases in which religion is an easier and more accessible way to establish a moral framework for one's actions than taking the time and effort to apply logic and weigh consequences. For example, if you are trying to teach moral behavior to young children, it's probably easier to explain it to them as just "because God says it's wrong" (or right) as opposed to trying to justify or condemn certain behavior based on logic and widely held views. And then the kids have that moral framework available to them beginning at a very early age.

^ That didn't come out quite the right way, but it's as close as I can get to articulating the idea I was trying to express...

 

[Kenneth R.]

i would agree to that.

granted, as i am christian, i do believe things "because God says so" but that belief is not blind, i have various reasonings and evidence that led me to think thus. i also have as you have described intrinsic morality that has always been my own.

my point that religion is a necessary force in today's society and moreso now than in ancient times stems from what i said above, and in agreement with what you've said.

 

[Zack]

Very nicely put

 

[Darth Kur]

.... in today's world, science rules over all. fact, logic, and intellect. .

I wish more than anything for that to be true. If indeed it were a fact then true progress for humanity could proceed. As long as these trite ancient myths are alive and allowed to continue to drag down world societies into pointless endeavors and war then this planet is doomed to barbarity and ignorance.

I do, on the other hand, heartily agree with you on your statement of:
"today's information age, information and media present ideas and opinions as if they were fact, and these skewed representations abound now that everyone is connected to TV and the internet."

For certain the media is skewering peoples opinion so as to bring about our weakening demise and therefore strengthening their foothold on wide spread control. But I digress. That's something else entirely. But at it's roots it is spawned forth from the original topic of ancient primitive beliefs that have brought nothing but ruination throughout the ages on all sides.

The populace seem to be slowly awakening from a long slumber and upon doing so realize that they've been living a lie. More and more are discovering that these outdated fictions are no longer "necessary".
And you don't need to be one of the sheeple to have any sort of moral values either. I don't value the thought of turning over on your back like a beaten submissive dog. That is the way of slavery not advancement.

 

[Intoxicator]

Darth Kur hit the nail on the head. I also believe that religion is what is holding our race back. We need to stop waiting for a savior and start saving our selves.

 

[Kenneth R.]

what race do you speak of?

there is no message in the bible where it says "do nothing and wait for God". instead, we are responsible and accountable for our actions and futures. we must act, not wait for God to act for us. i don't see your point against "waiting for a savior" when the Savior demanded action and not waiting for command.

Darth, i was about to agree with you until you stooped to groundless slander against religions again. the masses are not slaves to Christ, they are slaves to the media. you seem too proud to give your life to a cause not of your creation.

 

[Darth Kur]

First of all my "slander" is far from groundless. Every accusation that I make is based in logic and reality. But this is not the main point I wished to respond to.
You misunderstood my attack on the media. Again, as like any typical x-tain fanatic, you have to associate everything with the emaciated jew. I was agreeing with you 100% on the media's agenda on employing trickery and subterfuge to brainwash the masses and therefore obtain their goals. My connection to a certain religion in that respect predates your present obsession but is in a way related. You figure it out.
And yes, damn straight, I am proud! More so than any one of your fictional tales of lucifer.

 

[no country for old wainds]

We need to stop waiting for a savior and start saving our selves.

I don't think Christianity has made people just passively wait for a saviour, if anything it's made them more desperate to do good, it's just that what's considered good by Christianity is things like "selflessness" and "equality" which are opposed to survival and evolution.

 

[Kenneth R.]

First of all my "slander" is far from groundless. Every accusation that I make is based in logic and reality. But this is not the main point I wished to respond to.
You misunderstood my attack on the media. Again, as like any typical x-tain fanatic, you have to associate everything with the emaciated jew. I was agreeing with you 100% on the media's agenda on employing trickery and subterfuge to brainwash the masses and therefore obtain their goals. My connection to a certain religion in that respect predates your present obsession but is in a way related. You figure it out.
And yes, damn straight, I am proud! More so than any one of your fictional tales of lucifer.

actually i ignored your comment on the media cause i felt there was no need to debate what we both agree upon.

what do you speak of this "emaciated jew"? i've never heard this term before. i was asking for the basis of your logic and "reality" that you use to come to these conclusions. "i don't wanna say" or "i don't feel like it" doesn't really come off as conclusive evidence to me.

and lastly, being a follower of Christ isn't my current obsession, it is a lifetime obsession.

 

[Darth Kur]

what do you speak of this "emaciated jew"? i've never heard this term before.

i was asking for the basis of your logic and "reality" that you use to come to these conclusions. "i don't wanna say" or "i don't feel like it" doesn't really come off as conclusive evidence to me.

and lastly, being a follower of Christ isn't my current obsession, it is a lifetime obsession.

You're kidding right? :Smug: The same emaciated jew you seem to adore so much that got stapled to a twig

Specifically what "conclusions" are you referring to?

Lifetime eh,? How can you say with any certainty what you'll think years or decades into the future? You might "see the light" and discover the error of your ways. Miracles do happen.

 

[Kenneth R.]

any and all evidence that led you to this viewpoint on christianity. that evidence. let's see it, because as far as i can tell, you're just extremely pissed off for no good reason.

how do i know i won't change my mind? the things i have seen and experienced will be sure of that.