Cruelest people in history?

[seedofvengeance]

I never said they were, I was just being sarcastic to everyone else who made it sound like Africa was a perfect place and still would be if Europeans hadn't have come.

 

[Ender Rises]

Bah. Forgot about the prison colony.

Hm. What you say makes a lot of sense. They were selling slaves to each other before Europeans got there.

However, regarding your comment about the technologies. You do realize that technology has advanced? I was talking about the lack of modern technology, which happened because of a combination of Africa being so poor, without any kind of farming land to speak of, and because Europeans took advantage of them, and they got access to guns and the like. They don't have any kind of technological independence, that was my point.

And hell no it wasn't a perfect place, but it worked for them. I never called them a utopia, I said the hunter-gatherer lifestyle works in Africa and Europeans had no right to try to colonize and civilize them.

 

[Life Sucks]

Africans didn't need technology as much as the Europeans did, with their abundance of natural resources and lack of cold, harsh weather. I'm not saying that this is the reasons they didn't technologically develop as fast as the Europeans.

 

[Zephyrus]

Every civilization has strife regardless of how sophisticated or "evolved" they are, which simply indicates the nature of the strife. In primitive societies, strife is caused by the elements and minor tribal disputes. In complex European society, strife is exponentially more severe as it corresponds with the level of sophistication. So when you lay the strife of a developed civilization upon a primitive culture, the effects are that much more devastating.

 

[seedofvengeance]

I don't understand how Europeans introducing technology prevents them from accessing technology now. They are far too poor to afford technology, which is a problem that existed before European influence.

I'm not denying that some of what Europe did was wrong, but Africa's current turbulent state can be contributed very little, if any to the influence of 18th and 19th century Europeans.

edit: I'm also wanting someone to explain how major tribal wars that are happening daily, can be attributed to Europeans.

 

[Ender Rises]

With their natural resources, if they had not been colonized, they could have made plenty of money in the trade market.

They might have ended up in this state on their own, but you can't deny that Europe was a big influence on the unrest that's there now. Disputes over boundaries, whose land is whose, disputes over past crimes committed by various tribes, etc. etc.

 

[Zephyrus]

I don't understand how Europeans introducing technology prevents them from accessing technology now. They are far too poor to afford technology, which is a problem that existed before European influence.

They wouldn't be poor if they didn't need to afford such technology. The fact that the imperialists reshaped their perceptions of how society must be constructed has created a need on their part for the technology that goes along with the social system that's been foisted upon them.

 

[seedofvengeance]

All disputes that would still exist without European influence!

Most of their natural resources are not useful to the world at large today. Not to mention, to use your own point against you... they're not concerned with exporting and importing resources, when a majority of tribes are merely hunters and gatherers, simply worried about feeding themselves day to day.

 

[seedofvengeance]

They wouldn't be poor if they didn't need to afford such technology. The fact that the imperialists reshaped their perceptions of how society must be constructed has created a need on their part for the technology that goes along with the social system that's been foisted upon them.

So they would sit in a primitive state, barely over that of a caveman, living day to day off of what they can find. The reason technology exists is to make life easier... so, yes to have a better civilization, technology is a must! This still does not explain how Europeans are to blame for their continuous tribal disputes, which is a primary problem in Africa.

 

[Ender Rises]

Yes, the disputes would still be there, but Europe had a huge magnifying effect. The disputes would have been there, but not near as huge and bloody. The borders are more in question since Europe carved up the land into slices for each empire, and the crimes are more plentiful since more slaves were traded to Europe and the Americas than there would have been before Europe made a larger market for them.

 

[Zephyrus]

So they would sit in a primitive state, barely over that of a caveman, living day to day off of what they can find. The reason technology exists is to make life easier... so, yes to have a better civilization, technology is a must! This still does not explain how Europeans are to blame for their continuous tribal disputes, which is a primary problem in Africa.

You missed the point I made earlier. The more technologically advanced a civilization becomes, the greater the strife it incurs.

 

[Ender Rises]

So they would sit in a primitive state, barely over that of a caveman, living day to day off of what they can find. The reason technology exists is to make life easier... so, yes to have a better civilization, technology is a must! This still does not explain how Europeans are to blame for their continuous tribal disputes, which is a primary problem in Africa.

You're making our point for us. What we're saying is, what works for Africa works for Africa. If they want to improve, that's their choice, and they have the land and natural resources (BLOOD DIAMONDS?!) to be able to afford it. If they don't want to improve, that's their choice. They can survive with hunting and gathering, and they would have better access to healthcare if Africa had been left to it's own devices, since more towns and cities would have sprang up. Certainly, not everyone who wants to improve can, since not everyone owns the land... but there would be jobs up for grabs.

 

[Zephyrus]

What works for Africa works for Africa. What works for Europe does not work for Africa. And the reality is that the systems in place in Africa are what work for Europe, not for Africa.

 

[seedofvengeance]

There were wars, famine, and poverty in Africa before we got there... and there were will be long after we left. I'm not saying Europeans had no influence on what it has become, I'm just saying that eventually it would have gotten to this point anyways.

 

[Zephyrus]

Then this argument is over. We all agree that the Euro's fucked it up, and it would have still had its own problems if it were left alone to advance toward societal/technological complexity and thus compound the strife that corresponds to that process.

 

[seedofvengeance]

Nice compromise... I like it. I also like how keen you were in realizing that I was bored of this argument.

 

[metal_wrath]

So they would sit in a primitive state, barely over that of a caveman, living day to day off of what they can find. The reason technology exists is to make life easier... so, yes to have a better civilization, technology is a must! This still does not explain how Europeans are to blame for their continuous tribal disputes, which is a primary problem in Africa.

One of the main reasons for advancements in technology is for military purposes and to adapt to extreme weather climates.

 

[seedofvengeance]

See "bored of this argument" section of my last post.

By the way, both are to make life easier. To make it easier to win wars and to make life easier in extreme weather... making life easier is a broad spectrum.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Right...I know they sold us slaves, but that was because we bought them. Traditional african slavery was nowhere near as harsh as the European brand. We gave them guns and encouraged tribal warfare.
As far as AIDS, we haven't done shit about it - we've let them die by the millions without medication, education, etc...

You miss the point... none of the things you mentioned happened just by our doing... europeans may have 'given' them weapons and encouraged tribal warfare (give examples please) but the fact is that THEY are the one's pulling the trigger. europeans may have bought slaves but they bought them from other Africans.
the only difference between the africans and us is that we had/have better technology. they would be (and in fact are) doing all of the same horrible shit that we have done if they had the right tools for it.

we haven't done anything about AIDS? BULLSHIT! we invented all of the retroviral mediacations that they are using... there are many people in that continent from western backgrounds working to treat and educate people with that disease.
your point of view is a childish black and white one. the world is not black and white. it is gray.

 

[seedofvengeance]

Welcome, educated one.