D/A converters and clipping

[Metaltastic]

So something occurred to me - I remember Bob saying when he got his FF400 that there was noticeably less clipping on some of his mixes (and that he could push them harder) compared with his M-Audio. However, since most people are gonna be listening to music with pretty sub-par converters, is it possible that one could "loudness-maximize" a song without any noticeable clipping on Apogee converters, but clipping would be everywhere using a standard computer sound card cuz its D/A converters couldn't handle being pushed that extra bit?

If so, it makes a pretty big case for having a reference D/A converter! (along with reference monitors, reference impulses of different environments, etc.) Thoughts?

 

[abyssofdreams]

Hmm good question but seeing that 9 out 10 songs clip (at least the clipping counter in Wavelab indicates so) and you don't hear any clipping I dunno...

 

[Metaltastic]

Yeah, to rephrase, I mean audible clipping (e.g. Kronos' "The Hellenic Terror" JESUS FARKIN' CHRIST)

 

[John_C]

I'm guessing most consumer gear runs with some spare headroom

 

[Lasse Lammert]

always master peaking -0.4 / -0.3dB max.
reduces intersample clipping etc on shitty D/A.

if it's gonna be compressed to mp3 I usually leave even way more headroom

 

[Metaltastic]

Well you can't have spare headroom when the signal the converters are receiving is 111111111111111 (but I'm thinking maybe they start squawkin' like a chicken even before that)

And Lasse, yeah, same here, in Vox. Elephant, I always set the output to -0.5

 

[Melodeath]

Having more headroom in your D/A gives you no bonuses at all when it comes to mixing ITB.

 

[Kazrog]

I paid big bucks, but I had no headroom. I couldn't get that "boom."



Better D/A converters will smooth clipping into a more desirable pushed sound, however you really don't want to be relying on that, because nobody else will hear your mix like you except other nerds with great D/A converters.

 

[Metaltastic]

Better D/A converters will smooth clipping into a more desirable pushed sound, however you really don't want to be relying on that, because nobody else will hear your mix like you except other nerds with great D/A converters.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking - I guess the easy solution is what I've always been doing, setting the absolute max level in my limiter (Vox. Elephant) as -0.5 dB just to be safe!

 

[AudioGeekZine]

see: intersample peaks

In the FF400, the analog stage after the DAC has headroom above 0dBfs but the m-audio one didn't and can't acurately recreate the waveform past full scale.
You decide which is actually better. the FW400 has more headroom in the DAC so you can push it harder before hearing it clip, listen to the same mix on a lesser converter and it'll clip like a mofo.

after rereading the OP, I think you've got the right idea. This is why it's a good idea to burn a cd and listen to it from a boom box or any other consumer device.