Dave Burns' The Ghosts of Glam Metal Past now online!

[Jim LotFP]

Right here.

 

[Cheiron]

I enjoyed it. One of my primary concerns with major labels putting out metal, is that these labels will have a filtering effect down to independent labels. People forget that "independent" labels, don't have to tell bands what they can make or not make. If they don't like it, they just don't promote it much, they don't resign the band, they don't give the band anything for their next album. And basically, the major labels will create a marketed sound, which independent labels will want to cash in on (either through marketing those bands themselves, or signing them and marketing them to major labels so that they can cash in when the band is signed to a major label).

The difference; however, between now and the 80s, and the prior metal crash, is the Internet. It is far easier for bands to get out news about their sound, album, tours, etc., via the Internet, than they ever had before. I think that this is the only area that Dave's article falls short. He fails to discuss what possible differences there could be between the effect that glam was able to have on metal, and what could occur today.

 

[Armageddon's Child]

Excellent article, and the point about the metal majors is well-taken (and one I've been making for 8 or 10 years now), and I think the trickle down theory is basically correct in this instance.

On the other hand, I wouldn't soft-peddle the criticism. Mastodon, Lamb of God and Shadows Fall all SUCK.

Mastodon = South of Heven - nutsack + noodling

Lamb of God = Pantera + noodling

Shadows Fall = Slaughter of the Soul + noodling

 

[Jim LotFP]

The difference; however, between now and the 80s, and the prior metal crash, is the Internet. It is far easier for bands to get out news about their sound, album, tours, etc., via the Internet, than they ever had before. I think that this is the only area that Dave's article falls short. He fails to discuss what possible differences there could be between the effect that glam was able to have on metal, and what could occur today.

Dave will have his own opinion, but now I will tell you mine:

The internet doesn't mean jack shit to the bigger picture.

What the internet will do is make sure that the people into it will be able to communicate and network more conveniently before the internet. They won't be isolated and feeling like the last man on Earth when metal is the most unfashionable thing on Earth again.

You still have to look for things to find them on the internet. When people aren't interested in finding it anymore, it won't matter that it's still there. When the bubble bursts, it'll be a few thousand underground music snobs into the music and wondering why nobody else cares, same as it was in the mid-90s. It'll be reflected in music sales (of whatever format, physical or digital), hits to websites and therefore advertising revenue (so websites will disappear the same as magazines, bands, and record companies in due time), just everywhere.

Now, all of this is going to look foolish considering that metal is still rising in popularity. It's popularity really just begun. There's a few more years at least of top 10 hits, massive tours, all that stuff still to come. But it doesn't last forever. No fad does, and anything hitting commercial success in a wave is a fad. But the longer a positive commercial environment exists, the more it will become a goal, an assumed part of the culture of the scene, and the harder it will be to avoid its consequences.

And when you take it away? It won't be pretty.

Glad to see the scene learning from its mistakes, mmm?

But it's no big deal to grab all you can while it's there to grab, right? Make a bit of money now, swallow the ego after the crash of 2013 until things pick up again in 2019 and you can do that reunion tour for an obscene amount of money. Healthy business tactics. Steady and sustainable (which the internet certainly can aid) just isn't cool.

 

[Armageddon's Child]

I agree, the internet isn't going to help. In fact, the internet just makes it easier for the labels to market this crap. "New Wave of American Heavy Metal" may have originated in the print media, but it has gained its traction mostly through repetition on the web.

The most effective advertising is memetic, and cultural fads certainly are. The internet is the perfect echo chamber - turn your meme loose and watch the idiots spread it for you.

 

[Jim LotFP]

Another thing to think about... Shadows Fall was being primed for mainstream success as soon as they were signed and their Century Media debut was released in 2000. I should have forwarded this stuff to Dave when I saw his draft of the article to see if he could make use of it, but didn't think of it til just now.

I don't save the press bios (although in this case I should have), but these snippets may give an idea of what's going on;

It looks like Century Media is turning you guys into something of a priority, I guess.
Yeah, they’ve been doing a lot of good things for us. We’re pretty excited to see where it goes. Obviously we’ve never been at this level before.

I look at these bios comparing you to Metallica and Slayer…
That’s very nerve wracking! When you’re comparing the album to Powerslave and then think ‘OK, no pressure!’ Come on! That makes me very nervous, but they feel that way, so that’s good.

How is the decision made to push a band... I remember SHADOWS FALL a couple of years ago. The press release compared them to METALLICA and IRON MAIDEN.
That was my fault. That wasn't the case of the wand being waived over them. We knew we had a good record. Everyone here liked it. From me, the radio guy especially. We loved the record. I personally think I got carried away. I realized it when the band was doing interviews and someone asked them about that, and they said it makes them uncomfortable and puts them in an awkward position! Then I backed off. I didn't want them getting shit for something I said. But I honestly felt it was one of the best debuts of a band I'd heard in a long time. The stuff that I was saying in that press release was from me, from my heart. Our radio guy was doing the same thing. I don't necessarily regret it. I figured people like you would be like, "Whatever, Matt." You know not to pay attention to what publicists say. You're going to make your own opinion. I figured you'll make your opinion. You'll either like it or you won't like it. If you don't like it, I'll call you an idiot but we'll be alright. But when you say stuff like that, the mainstream people take you serious. They're not saying, "This is going to be the second coming of METALLICA!" but they are saying, "OK, if they're saying this, that means they're going to back it up." So they took us seriously. They were in Guitar World, they were in major magazines. That was my way of knowing those people know I was serious. Everyone here knew the record was killer. The band was willing to work. When a band comes to us and says, "We'll do what it takes, get in that van and go across the country and play every show we can," then we're going to do everything we can for the band. That's what SHADOWS FALL was willing to do and that's why we worked hard with them. And another thing with that band, they weren't coming out of nowhere. They had done a record on their own that they had sold 10,000 copies of on their own. It's not like they had no history. They definitely had a strong history. They had the former OVERCAST singer in the band who also had a strong sales history, especially in the Northeast.

 

[BenMech]

The Of One Blood marketing by CM angered me back then, and the relentless promotion of SF still annoys me (or any of their clones). I still dislike them now (Although due to Paul Cashman, I learned they are fans of Ozric Tentacles).

 

[Fando]

On the other hand, I wouldn't soft-peddle the criticism. Mastodon, Lamb of God and Shadows Fall all SUCK.

Mastodon = South of Heaven - nutsack + noodling

Lamb of God = Pantera + noodling

Shadows Fall = Slaughter of the Soul + noodling

Agreed. The thing about Burns is his seeming inability to discuss these things on an artistic level. Instead, there are these overwritten academic/trade reports. Reading about how LOG, Shadows Fall and Mastadon have chucked their roots isn't too intriguing when they were derivative suck to begin with. Money changes things? Of course, but there was never much to these groups to begin with. A cursory listen to either of these bands (which I assume did take place) and all this talk of the "New Wave" disintegrates at once. They're all hanging on to a version of dumbed down speed or death metal that first appeared 10 years ago.

I do agree with the contrasting of intentions re: Twisted Sister and wish there was more of that done with bands that are currently together -- putting them up against the mainstream favorites. I don't mean to be rudely confrontational, I just think this can be extended and help point readers to stuff that is out there and in the same motion.

I don't know about the print zine but the website suffers from not getting the word out on bands that are worthy or integral besides the occasional review/interview. The thread where people were complaining about complaining about demos was a prime example and I didn't really take away any demos that are worth hearing out of it from the parties involved

 

[Cheiron]

I don't think that that is a fair criticism. He didn't talk about these artistically because then the complaint will be, "Oh you just don't like these bands, and that's your only complaint about their success."

Further, the point is that a lot of people -do- like these bands. Which means they got picked up by major labels. And even if they aren't initially interested in changing their music based on any label pressure (pressure comes in various cloak and dagger forms. It isn't always outright and obvious), changes will most likely still occur.

Some predictions. Mastodons next album will be less 'loud', a bit more melodic, with a greater emphasis on clean vocals and more 'personal' songs. Lamb of God's next album will do the same. Shadows Fall's next album will do the same.

And Dave got it right with the 'party' music. I fucking hate it. I can't stand the bullshit. Despite me liking some of Trivium's music, that damn video (which is hillariously similar in ways to Lamb of God's), where they go and crash a party and show them how to truly party is so lame. I'm sorry, but its the same reason I don't like a lot of the 80s Hard Rock and Hair Metal. I don't want to listen to music about guys who supposedly know how to party so righteously. But this is a major reason that Hip Hop outsells metal and for a while was probably outselling alternative rock. It sells on MTV, thus, it sells.

The old argument of 'oh you only dislike this band now because they got popular,' is often bullshit. How often do you see a band once its popular, be promoting their former songs? How often do you hear those former songs being played? How often do you see videos of those songs? Rarely. For a good reason. Typically the band you used to like, put out a new album, which you didn't like, but a lot of others did like. Doesn't mean you can't listen to their old shit and still enjoy it though.

 

[Fando]

I don't think that that is a fair criticism. He didn't talk about these artistically because then the complaint will be, "Oh you just don't like these bands, and that's your only complaint about their success."

Pardon, but this is just silly. Dave may disagree, we haven't heard from him yet ,but what I'm getting at is: First, the influences of all three of these groups are readily noticeable. Second, those influences, particularly Pantera and At The Gates (meaning the actual music) have a definite part in making a more consumptive (read: simplistic) brand of metal that appeals to more people because it is less challenging and ordinary. It's a valid thing to look into, no matter what some idiot fanboy may cry back. Third, like he isn't already seen as a grumpy old man after the hipster piece?

Further, the point is that a lot of people -do- like these bands. Which means they got picked up by major labels. And even if they aren't initially interested in changing their music based on any label pressure (pressure comes in various cloak and dagger forms. It isn't always outright and obvious), changes will most likely still occur.

I understood the point of the piece, thank you. I'm commenting on the author's general way of approaching things and think that part of the reason why so many people like these groups, or find them to be a revelation, is that they might not know what else is out there.

 

[Cheiron]

I'm commenting on the author's general way of approaching things and think that part of the reason why so many people like these groups, or find them to be a revelation, is that they might not know what else is out there.

I wish that were true. I've tried to turn people that are into those types of bands into the other stuff that is 'out there.' And it isn't working. I need to talk to them more about why they don't like it. But, I used to think that what you said is true, and right now I no longer can.

 

[Fando]

You may be right. Regardless, there are acts that ought to be mentioned more than other writer's names in the future.

 

[BenMech]

I wish that were true. I've tried to turn people that are into those types of bands into the other stuff that is 'out there.' And it isn't working. I need to talk to them more about why they don't like it. But, I used to think that what you said is true, and right now I no longer can.

This is due to people NOT WANTING TO CARE about what they hear.

 

[Jim LotFP]

I don't know about the print zine but the website suffers from not getting the word out on bands that are worthy or integral besides the occasional review/interview. The thread where people were complaining about complaining about demos was a prime example and I didn't really take away any demos that are worth hearing out of it from the parties involved

The print zine, aside from the Scum issue, is overwhelmingly dedicated to talking specifically about bands, interviews/reviews mostly. Most of the people posting around here have seen the last couple of issues and I'm sure they'll speak up if I'm full of shit on this one.

If I had the choice the website really would just be a simple advertisement for the print zine, and all the longer features would be in the print version, but money issues prevent publishing issues of sufficient size and prevent effective distribution... so for the most part, the theory ends up on the site and the application of that theory is in print.

This is a review that ran in LotFP #66 in August. I can't say it's typical of the review content in LotFP, but it is the kind of standard I shoot for and is one of my favorite bits I've done in the last six months of writing.

 

[erekose]

I enjoyed the article. I didn't know lots of facts exposed in it. Props to the writer!

On a side note, I haven't heard anything from Lamb of God or Shadows Fall, but I really enjoyed Mastodon Leviathan, and I don't understand how it can be considered "commercial" music or music for the masses, it was challenging music for me... to each his own I suppose

 

[Some Bastard]

I don't get it either, and I'm pretty sure most of the complainers here have never actually heard Mastodon's music. Maybe some of the guys in Mastodon have fucked someone's sister here, who knows?

 

[Fando]

I've heard them, I just don't remember it because it was so bland and unremarkable. Mast-O-don is merely the epitome of all this hyperbolic press. Musically, I'm rather indifferent to it. But because the genre's history is handled so ineptly, they're framed as some kind of literate and progressive marvel. Fuck that.

 

[Some Bastard]

Mastodon

Actually I've known them since before there was any hyperbolic press

But you're absolutely right about the genre's history being handled ineptly here

 

[Fando]

Actually I've known them since before there was any hyperbolic press

Completely irrelevant and nothing to do with their standing in the mainstream and heavy metal press. Thanks For Sharing though

But you're absolutely right about the genre's history being handled ineptly here

 

[Professor Black]

The "non-artistic" treatment of these subjects is the only way it can have a chance to work. If the author assents to hating Shadows Fall, perhaps he gains credibility with Fando, but he loses it with anyone who happens to like the band. (...assuming that Fando exaggerates when he claims to not recall what the bands in question sound like.)

The intended audience for a piece like this is NOT the choir that rehearses on this message board. The point of the article is NOT whether those bands are good or not.

The best writer in the universe would not be able to change any of my opinions about the music of Shadows Fall. And while Dave is not that writer, Dave does know that this is true and accordingly turns his pen's eye toward less futile endeavors. It's not a fucking album review.