Zealotry said:Yah, Ildjarn is just sooooo much better than Fates Warning.
Indeed. And Fates Warning were just about the best the 80s had to offer. Man, the 80s were a shitty decade for metal.
Impure Metal: How Underground Heavy Metal Became Mainstream Heavy Music
- Thread starter Jim LotFP
- Start date
Indeed. And Fates Warning were just about the best the 80s had to offer. Man, the 80s were a shitty decade for metal.
Zealotry said:
There were nearly as many great albums produced in Norway alone between 1991 and 1996 than in all of metal in the years between 1980 and 1989.
Of course I'm 'for real,' I just don't buy into the hype of the jumped up rock 'n roll that is most 80s 'metal.'
Yeah, I'd guess that Varg, for one, probably has had shits that are more creatively vital than the 80s metal scene...
Europa Ascendent said:
It was a positive effect because it reoriented the metal scene away from fame-and-fortune focus, re-set expectations for what a metal band could reasonably achieve as far as a "career", and demonstrated that it was sustainable at that lower plateau of popularity.
It was negative because it's much easier to be complete shit playing black or death metal yet still be accepted as something valid.
Creative relevance is a characteristic of an artist, not a genre. Commercial success of a genre just kills everyone's patience with being in your face all the time through overexposure of the top names and the glut of copycats hoping to become top names. Who wants to sort through all that to find the real people with talent and spirit? That is a constant in traditional, speed, death, black, or whatever.
Jim LotFP said:
The worst bands in the extreme genres are no worse than the worst playing trad and speed metal, and the best are light years beyond what could reasonably be expected even of the best of 80s metal.
I agree with you on the question of saturation, at least to an extent. But what you and Dave fail to recognize is that this isn't a commerce-linked phenomenon. The biggest problem was, is and will always be that any prominence achieved by a scene - regardless of whether there's any financial reward to be had - will eventually attract the socializing parasites, the people who are simply looking for something to belong to and participate in, without regard to their ability to actually contribute anything. They all form their own garage bands, their own garage labels, their own garage 'zines. Pretty soon what you've got is a big incestuous circle jerk of mediocrity, with all the scenesters fondling each other in a race to be equal. Artists that try to rise above are kicked aside by the crowd, because recognizing true excellence is A.) above their stunted mental faculties and B.) would require the admission that their own feeble efforts are creatively meaningless. Can you blame a Metallica or a Slayer for saying 'fuck this' when they looked around and saw all the scenester fanboys fellating turdbucket bands like Testament and Dark Angel? That had to be pretty fucking discouraging to bands that had actually, you know, accomplished something.
Europa Ascendent said:
But it is. Wouldn't you say that the bands getting the most exposure and hype are the ones that get the most copycats?
Sometimes, sometimes not. Hype is not always a commercial phenomenon (there are, for instance, thousands more Burzum and DarkThrone clones than there are Cradle or Dimmu wannabes, which I suppose shows that even the wannabes in black metal at least have decent taste). The fact that the exact same problems appear in genres with no possibility of commercial success makes it clear that money and the industry side of things are not the causative agents, or at least not the primary causative agents.
Europa Ascendent said:
Just from a technical perspective: it is easier to be a Burzum clone than a Dimmu of Filth clone.
As for the primary causative agents: wouldn't you say that it is idol worship in the first place? - Copyists that want monetary profit often act way more professional - or what else than a try to cash in on a scertain band scheme would you call Abyssos' Together we summon the dark, which appeared on Cacophonous and was a congregation of (studio) musicians that come from a wholly different school of metal? - Or that Testament side-spin Dragonlord: people that are known to be believers in Christian principles or at least religiously indifferent posing with upside-down crosses and facepaint...
but for all the calculation, maybe there must be a little spark of identification with the copied subject, or are these people really that soulless?
Anyone remember these guys? Or are y'all too young?
Same shit, different day :Smug:
Only back then people didn't get so worked up about it (of course we didn't have the internet then)
In a way all this purism and nitpicking is a good thing, because without it we wouldn't have had The Bad News Tour and Heavy Metal Parking Lot and Beavis & Butthead and Tenacious D and that great Spanish Heavy Metal comedy Isi/Disi
Yep, it's geeks like us that jokes are made about. And rightfully so! I eagerly await LOTFP - The Movie
Same shit, different day :Smug:
Only back then people didn't get so worked up about it (of course we didn't have the internet then)
In a way all this purism and nitpicking is a good thing, because without it we wouldn't have had The Bad News Tour and Heavy Metal Parking Lot and Beavis & Butthead and Tenacious D and that great Spanish Heavy Metal comedy Isi/Disi
Yep, it's geeks like us that jokes are made about. And rightfully so! I eagerly await LOTFP - The Movie
The first footage is in:
"But...that's not Heavy Metal!!?"
"Is too!!!"
"Impossible! They're on a major now!They're sellouts!!"
"But...that's not Heavy Metal!!?"
"Is too!!!"
"Impossible! They're on a major now!They're sellouts!!"
Some Bastard said:
Jokes are made about people who care about anything.
"Oohh! oohh! Caring! MUST TARGET!"
Occam's Razor said:
The Suffocation clone market is a lot more technically demanding than either (and far less lucrative than the Cradle/Dimmu set), yet there are far more of those than either as well.
There's some of that, but the truth is, they're quite rare at every level, so you're looking at people who are, for the most part, not terribly professional and not all that motivated by cash concerns. The driving forces are social and psychological: the need to fit in, the desire to socialize etc.
Some Bastard said:I wouldn't make jokes if it was actually the MUSIC you cared about
Tell me more about how I don't care about the music.
I don't see any love or passion for music in your article. Yes, it's about marketing and authenticity and why or how something is or isn't to be called Heavy Metal and what bands should or shouldn't do and how it 'needs' to be 'redefined' (again, why? and what would make you qualified to do the redefining?) blablabla... That's what you seem to care about. But where's the Love for the Music man? I don't see it!Jim LotFP said:
Yeah yeah, "could this be written by someone who doesn't like Heavy Metal?". Yeah, I guess it could because it's mostly contempt I see
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