mix alone when you can, or as few band members around as possible.... send the mixes in to one band rep and, if requested, to label too if there is one. you'll learn to get good at getting very close like this.. with the need for only one, two max, revisions.... if you don't, you'll lose the confidence of your clients. that's the reality of the professional end of the business.... get it right, or damn close to it, on your first go.
Dealing with difficult clients
- Thread starter coldthrn
- Start date
wishtheend
clip the apex
Prior to recording/mixing I try to get an idea of what type of sound the band is after. Usually I ask for them to give some cd examples of mixes, or tones that they like. Of course I tell them to be resonable - their Marshall isn't going to transform into a brutal Mesa tone in mixing.
I like the idea of having one member being the main contact between me and the band. I mix alone - and will send mixes to that one person who will then show to the band and discuss. If they have any input or want things changed, I have them write it down and explain in detail. (ie solo @ 2:35 should come up). This gives me some key things to take note of, but I don't end up doing it all their way. In the end, I'm mixing it - not them.
I like the idea of having one member being the main contact between me and the band. I mix alone - and will send mixes to that one person who will then show to the band and discuss. If they have any input or want things changed, I have them write it down and explain in detail. (ie solo @ 2:35 should come up). This gives me some key things to take note of, but I don't end up doing it all their way. In the end, I'm mixing it - not them.
PhilR
Studio Scapegoat
Ditto.
I like to make clear to bands that although I'm all for having fun and enjoying a session I won't tolerate fucking around or the generally shitty "me me me" attitude that many band members bring. It's not a rehearsal session and it's not a fucking playground so don't piss me about and we'll get along just fine is my attitude.
Glenn Fricker
Very Metal &Very Bad News
And that's the worst possible thing that can happen during a mix.... well, in my experience, anyway. It turn a job from enjoyment to absolute hell.
Soundlurker
Member
- Nov 19, 2005
- 3,730
- 0
- 36
Yeah, I recently had some trouble with different musicians giving contradicting feedback. From now on I'm telling them to reach a consensus first.
ahjteam
Anssi Tenhunen
what I did with this one band that was really annoying: I did a roughmix with one song with the whole band present, nothing drastic; sound, tone, balance, general effects... this one took about a day. when they were happy, I sent them home and mixed the rest of the songs, bounced all songs to stereo, got them together again, gave them pen and paper for writing notes, pushed play and told them that the first fix was free. I only had to do that one fix, which was good. if the song material would'be been any more diverse, I would've taken the primus motor (the guy who wrote the songs etc) as "the producer" so he would make the decisions.
THe advice to appoint one person the "producer" is good advice. Even so, if you can manage to do the bulk of the work on your own then by God do it! It sucks having the band around during mixing. I'm very easygoing, and service oriented, but I've learned that I definitely prefer to work alone because once the project gets to the mixing stage, most of the artists are no longer on the same page as I am. Bring them in at the end and make revisions, but set your boundaries ahead of time so everyone knows what to expect, and you don't get stuck with a bunch of bullsh*t tweaking that drags the project on wayyyyy longer than it needs to go.
So far I've been lucky enough to mix alone most of the time, I really prefer this.
I've had some friends sit in while i'm working on stuff and its really annoying having people butt in while you're sweeping an eq, or setting up a compreessor. I hate it when people jump in before you're finished and tell you whatever you've not worked on yet doesn't sit in the mix or isn't sounding great.
I get very conscious of the other people when I'm working on a mix, especially when doing editing and the cleaning up that goes on before actually starting a mix. I much prefer doing this on my own.
What I've done so far is send the finished mix of the first track to the band, get their comments, finish that mix with the revisions they want and when they're happy, work on the rest of the tracks with that track as a template for the rest. Works well so far.
My problem so far with bands is they seem to want a mix crazy soon after tracking and are totally prepared to hassle the hell out of me to get it. I can't see the logic behind it myself- obviously the longer spent mixing the better it will sound, and since I mix for free when I track something, it's not going to cost them a cent to wait a few more days to get the proper finished article sounding as good as I can get it. I've not worked on any big projects with label demands or anything, the last E.P that I did was the first one to get properly pressed and released by the band, which makes it even more annoying that they press for it to be finsihed quickly.
From being in my own band, I can see that not everyone in a band thinks the recording is going to sound the same, Of the 4 guys in my band I don't think we share the same opinion all together on anything in a mix!
I've had some friends sit in while i'm working on stuff and its really annoying having people butt in while you're sweeping an eq, or setting up a compreessor. I hate it when people jump in before you're finished and tell you whatever you've not worked on yet doesn't sit in the mix or isn't sounding great.
I get very conscious of the other people when I'm working on a mix, especially when doing editing and the cleaning up that goes on before actually starting a mix. I much prefer doing this on my own.
What I've done so far is send the finished mix of the first track to the band, get their comments, finish that mix with the revisions they want and when they're happy, work on the rest of the tracks with that track as a template for the rest. Works well so far.
My problem so far with bands is they seem to want a mix crazy soon after tracking and are totally prepared to hassle the hell out of me to get it. I can't see the logic behind it myself- obviously the longer spent mixing the better it will sound, and since I mix for free when I track something, it's not going to cost them a cent to wait a few more days to get the proper finished article sounding as good as I can get it. I've not worked on any big projects with label demands or anything, the last E.P that I did was the first one to get properly pressed and released by the band, which makes it even more annoying that they press for it to be finsihed quickly.
From being in my own band, I can see that not everyone in a band thinks the recording is going to sound the same, Of the 4 guys in my band I don't think we share the same opinion all together on anything in a mix!
Yeah, come to think of it that is probably the No.1 reason I hate when everyone is around for mixing. When you are not even to the snare yet and they go "I really can't hear the snare" or you are trying to find the right high mids to boost on the guitars to make them snarl and they go "the guitars sound a little muffled compared to the drums." NO FUCKING SHIT. "Can we get a little more click on the kick drum? It's pretty easy to lose it during that part." Even though I fully intended to put more click on it anyway. FUCK.
This is one of the main reasons I'm taking a break until January, I get burnt out from all the jackasses telling me shit I already know or haven't even gotten to yet in the mix. It becomes zero fun once that bullshit starts. Even though I tell them "yeah, I haven't really gotten to that yet, I'm working on the guitars right now" they don't understand and keep doing that shit throughout the whole mix session. Instead of being normal and just shutting up. I've amended my client contract to include the requirement that the band must leave after tracking in order for me to start working on the mix. I'll have a mix ready and they are invited back to listen and give any opinions, then I give them a master bounce for them to preview for a week. At the end of the week they come back and we can make any final adjustments, if necessary. After that it's DONE. Anything afterwards costs more money.
I think it'll work out for me much better this way
~006
This is one of the main reasons I'm taking a break until January, I get burnt out from all the jackasses telling me shit I already know or haven't even gotten to yet in the mix. It becomes zero fun once that bullshit starts. Even though I tell them "yeah, I haven't really gotten to that yet, I'm working on the guitars right now" they don't understand and keep doing that shit throughout the whole mix session. Instead of being normal and just shutting up. I've amended my client contract to include the requirement that the band must leave after tracking in order for me to start working on the mix. I'll have a mix ready and they are invited back to listen and give any opinions, then I give them a master bounce for them to preview for a week. At the end of the week they come back and we can make any final adjustments, if necessary. After that it's DONE. Anything afterwards costs more money.
I think it'll work out for me much better this way
~006
I get that kind of stuff doing live sound in this venue too, its small enough and the Foh really is only re-enforcement of whats going out on stage- mainly when i do sound there its vox, guitars, bass and kick-sometimes toms but usually not. Drums are crazy loud due to place the stage is at.
Sometimes bands crank their amps between soundcheck and going on-( hate that, defeats the point of the sound check!) and vocals can't get louder cause of feedback but are still low in the mix because of the amps being so damn loud. There's nothing you can do till they finish the first song and tell them to turn them down again, but people come up to you and say "I can't hear the vocals?", no shit- no one can! Also happens sometimes when a band doesn't get a soundcheck, you do a quick level check, then they start and you see the problem.
Doesn't happen often but when it does, the punters are dicks.
Also I find both live and recording that those with a little bit of knowledge are the most annoying, you feel like getting up, and handing control over to them for 5 minutes, see how much better they have it when you come back, ya know.
I know one guy who's never done live sound or been at the helm of a proper recording but cause he knows a little about sound in theory drops remarks all over the place- had 1 band who's amp had a spot of trouble before a set so the guitarist fucked with his settings, they played their set but his tone was a bit crap, I was only running him through the p.a a tiny bit and giving him boosts for solo's. My friend kept saying to everyone really loudly while he was around me " pity about the guitar sound, ya know" and smirking over at me as though he would have fixed it. Even the guitarist in the band- who's also a sound engineer! -admitted to me right after their set that it was his fault with the tone and there was nothing I could have done to remedy it. The guy wouldn't leave it go and to this day when the band gets mentioned he drops that comment in there, pisses me off to no end!
Sometimes bands crank their amps between soundcheck and going on-( hate that, defeats the point of the sound check!) and vocals can't get louder cause of feedback but are still low in the mix because of the amps being so damn loud. There's nothing you can do till they finish the first song and tell them to turn them down again, but people come up to you and say "I can't hear the vocals?", no shit- no one can! Also happens sometimes when a band doesn't get a soundcheck, you do a quick level check, then they start and you see the problem.
Doesn't happen often but when it does, the punters are dicks.
Also I find both live and recording that those with a little bit of knowledge are the most annoying, you feel like getting up, and handing control over to them for 5 minutes, see how much better they have it when you come back, ya know.
I know one guy who's never done live sound or been at the helm of a proper recording but cause he knows a little about sound in theory drops remarks all over the place- had 1 band who's amp had a spot of trouble before a set so the guitarist fucked with his settings, they played their set but his tone was a bit crap, I was only running him through the p.a a tiny bit and giving him boosts for solo's. My friend kept saying to everyone really loudly while he was around me " pity about the guitar sound, ya know" and smirking over at me as though he would have fixed it. Even the guitarist in the band- who's also a sound engineer! -admitted to me right after their set that it was his fault with the tone and there was nothing I could have done to remedy it. The guy wouldn't leave it go and to this day when the band gets mentioned he drops that comment in there, pisses me off to no end!
slashvanyoung
Dopefish lives!
PhilR
Studio Scapegoat
Heh, this is all exactly like my last long recording session with a metal band. At the end they were just hanging around reluctant to leave until they'd rattled off a laundry list of things we already planned to do anyway. In the end I just cut them off and said "So what you're saying is, you want us to MIX THE SONG? You know, being as at the moment the song HASN'T BEEN MIXED? Well thank you for your suggestions guys, I mean it's not like we've ever recorded a metal band before or anything.".
I am a total bastard to our clients sometimes I admit. But then they usually deserve it.
I am a total bastard to our clients sometimes I admit. But then they usually deserve it.
Loren Littlejohn
Lover of all boobage.
X 1,000,000,000,000,000
They don't know when/how to shut the fuck up so you can hear what your doing.
Something i have been kinda forced to do on my last project, was the drummer of this band sat in with me and "helped" mix. When we where done i saved that project as Their mix, and within the next few days, I created my own mix, then i mixed down one song of each mix and then told them to choose the one they liked better. I won 
Loren Littlejohn
Lover of all boobage.
Something i have been kinda forced to do on my last project, was the drummer of this band sat in with me and "helped" mix. When we where done i saved that project as Their mix, and within the next few days, I created my own mix, then i mixed down one song of each mix and then told them to choose the one they liked better. I won
Of course you did, and why? Because your an engineer and they are musicians.
FUCK! We don't tell them how to play their fucking songs. So don't tell us how to move our fucking faders.
I know what you're going through. This is my first post in here, so I I'll explain. My name's Sean in Lansing Michigan. I'm an up and coming producer and engineer. I do mixing, mastering and in studio production and even arrangement and studio instrumentals. I was recently producing this band and mixing their CD. All the raw tracks were in my possession, and stupid of me I trusted them and went based on an agreement via emails instead of getting a signed contract. I was going to mix/master their CD for 500 dollars. I had to do 10 mixes until the first song was too their liking. I did it though. I said I'd make them happy and I was going to do it. Then, I get an email saying they are going to redo their guitars and then get it remixed. Well, then I get the email. Ok yeah, we got an email from somebody else and he's going to do our CD now. Sorry. Bye. And it's like woah. Ok? I put 3 other projects on hold to do theirs because I believed in their potential. They are small and unsigned. I need the money ha. I'm broke as hell and now i got no money and no other projects until next year February. It's bullshit I think.
Yep, sessions that I feel will take a certain amount of time I require a 25% deposit or else I won't even pencil them on the calendar. Learned that SUPER fast working at the last studio. Sure, a couple of the bands still ditched out, but we got to keep the deposit so we were covered. Plus all we had to do was make a few calls to the bands that were booked later and be like "hey, we are completely free today, you guys want to come in and get a little head start on the project?" and it never failed, no worries. It sucks that it happens, but only thing you can do is learn from it and require a non-refundable deposit for projects that you feel would put you in trouble if the band ditched.
~006
~006
Yeah I agree. I have to say I was a little to trusting thinking I knew these guys on a personal level. They were friends of my brother. But I just have to cover the basis and try and get the best for everybody and not get screwed over in the end.
aramism
Member
all i could say is that until you have the reputation of guys like james and andy the most important thing is laying out the "rules of engagement" from the get go. i like to sit down with them before even we start working and go over this stuff and constantly remind them of it. there are no firm rules but rather we kind of come up with a gameplan in unision so the band feels comfortable. in other words i'll have a template for workflow, etc. and they will tell me from the top if they are not hip with a certain idea. it makes them feel better and it helps me make them feel comfortable. i'll let them know from the start i am not going to be sending a million copies of a mix to other people and either it's going to be th whole band or one member. generally one person steps up and takes control.
by the time it comes to mixing you should already know what they are after so that minimal revisions are needed. you should mix alone and do a few revisions yourself until you are happy and then have a group listen in your studio. off the bat they will have a few comments you take note of and then you go back to working on it. then you do a revision and send the one person the copy and you say take a few days and give me notes. by this point there shouldn't be many notes. luckily i haven't had that many notes short of effects and bass drops and stuff like that. most bands are not audiophiles they generally just want things to be clear enough to be heard and of course each individual member will critique his or her instrument. the drummer might say the kick is too clicky or the guitarist might say the guitar is too fizzy but those are things you should have established beforehand really. it's important to take notes throughout the recording process so you know what they want. that's really part of your job. there will always be discrepancies but at the end of the day you should know what they want and if your vision does not meet theirs this should be addressed very early on. of course this is what works for me but i'm sure james will tell you the same as far being on the same page. he's not gonna record someone that likes fizzzy tone and james thinks it should be beefier then when he is mixing they start fighting. if i think drums should should clicky and the guy hates clicky we are going to duke it out waaay before mixing so that there are no surprises. and at the same token the band has to understand that mixing is a very organic process, you never really end up with the mix you 100% want anyway, it kind of mixes itself a lot and the band has to understand that as well. once again, the key here, and my closing statement is: COMMUNICATION IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
by the time it comes to mixing you should already know what they are after so that minimal revisions are needed. you should mix alone and do a few revisions yourself until you are happy and then have a group listen in your studio. off the bat they will have a few comments you take note of and then you go back to working on it. then you do a revision and send the one person the copy and you say take a few days and give me notes. by this point there shouldn't be many notes. luckily i haven't had that many notes short of effects and bass drops and stuff like that. most bands are not audiophiles they generally just want things to be clear enough to be heard and of course each individual member will critique his or her instrument. the drummer might say the kick is too clicky or the guitarist might say the guitar is too fizzy but those are things you should have established beforehand really. it's important to take notes throughout the recording process so you know what they want. that's really part of your job. there will always be discrepancies but at the end of the day you should know what they want and if your vision does not meet theirs this should be addressed very early on. of course this is what works for me but i'm sure james will tell you the same as far being on the same page. he's not gonna record someone that likes fizzzy tone and james thinks it should be beefier then when he is mixing they start fighting. if i think drums should should clicky and the guy hates clicky we are going to duke it out waaay before mixing so that there are no surprises. and at the same token the band has to understand that mixing is a very organic process, you never really end up with the mix you 100% want anyway, it kind of mixes itself a lot and the band has to understand that as well. once again, the key here, and my closing statement is: COMMUNICATION IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
::XeS::
Member
The problem is that lot of bands record an album only for their ego. I mean..when you do a mix and every single band member wanna hear his instrument prominent than the others, this is a band of stupid fuckin' morons and I hate these bands.
