how perfect is too perfect? dealing with clients

[jangoux]

I recorded this bitchy client who hired a top drummer...He did some takes and it was fine - not perfect with the metronome, but VERY fine. When the bitch listened to what was recorded, she collapsed, cried, everything...At the end they HAD to re-track it with another drummer because it was not perfect with the click track. Why am i saying this ? Sometimes clients are too obsessed with perfection, and while we aim perfection, we must find the point before perfection becomes annoying and after a mistake sounds like a mistake, helping the clients to sound good and natural.

I actually find to be very cool to hear imperfections on some songs, but i HATE the fact that i can hear them. Before i worked with this, i enjoyed music a lot more. Now i am too worried to find every details on every song.

 

[MetalSound]

I think it´s your job as a producer to get the best out of each band. If the band sucks at playing their own stuff would you hire a professional studio musician to record the real takes?
Where should this lead to? Lars Ulrich would never play drums again.

In another thread sometime ago, Andy said that modern metal productions have already reached the level of perfection from pop music.
Edited to death. uke:

BACK TO THE GLORY DAYS WHEN BANDS HAD TO LEARN THEIR INSTRUMENTS BEFORE STARING TO RECORD!!!

 

[Chryst Krispies]

I love hearing mistakes and slight sloppage on metal discs.

Unhallowed by The Black Dahlia Murder is full of slight sloppy guitar parts ALL over the album.
Old School Yngwie has some sloppage that they left in.

I'd say for solo's, sometimes I like to leave in small mistakes if the overall part is cool.
Rhythms not as much, but if it adds something cool and it isn't just the guitar player bein a lazy prick I'll leave it.

 

[AEL89]

As long as it makes me feel something then its good. I've heard bands produced poorly but their music just speaks to me...that's a million times better than clinically perfect production in my opinion.

The new mastodon record I think is a perfect example - I haven't noticed any mistakes but it also didn't strike me as sounding 'perfect', 'too tight' or 'robotic' at any point. The songs made the hairs on my arms stand up, I think the production works perfectly for them. They could have gone triggered with a wall of crushing tone...

Kirk Hammett is the king of overbending and dodgy vibrato but his solos are legendary and certainly make me feel more than someone like Michael Angelo Batio

On the other hand, just because something is absolutely perfect, it doesn't mean it has no feel or soul to it. I tend to aim for a balance. At a push, a take with feel will always be chosen agaisnt a tight take.

That's just me, I'm all about being a hippy and meditating over riffs and shit like that. For me, music is as much about what you feel as what you listen to. That's my opinion, its all completely objective of course. Great thread though!

 

[AdamWathan]

I think it´s your job as a producer to get the best out of each band. If the band sucks at playing their own stuff would you hire a professional studio musician to record the real takes?
Where should this lead to? Lars Ulrich would never play drums again.

I've yet to record a band where I didn't have to go back and retrack one of the instruments myself

As much as people will try and say, "nobody listening to the album will think you're a shitty engineer because the parts are played sloppy, as long as the actual sound is good," I completely disagree... I will never let anything leave here with my name on it that isn't at least decent sounding and played tightly, the quality of the performance is the absolute 100% most critical factor in the final sound of the recording IMO.

Musicians suck.

 

[JBroll]

"Emotion" has been used as an excuse for "shit technique" for decades now.

Try this... "I don't get to fuck up your guitar sound by rolling off everything that isn't 963Hz because I'm 'feeling the mix', asshat. Now shove that lame excuse back up whatever ass you pulled it out of and stop sucking cunts."

It gets even worse when people actively refuse to improve because they think it'll kill their 'soul'... and then turn around to joke that "metal guitarists play so many notes because they can't find the right ones". Right, and that's why rich, whiny midlife-crisis 'blues' players are so in fucking demand right now. Go die.

(And people wonder why I rarely work with other musicians...)

Jeff

 

[Metaltastic]

Jeff, once again - you are my god

 

[Chryst Krispies]

Kirk Hammett is the king of overbending and dodgy vibrato but his solos are legendary and certainly make me feel more than someone like Michael Angelo Batio

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Metaltastic]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

+1 hahahaha, how did I miss that (I mean, I'm no great fan of MAB either, but Hamster is pretty much at the opposite end )

 

[AEL89]

c'mon guys, am I right, or am I right on that one? So much respect for Kirk, but anyone who reeeaaaally knows their shit is aware he's not top of the pile. Still a bit of a god though...

 

[Chryst Krispies]

c'mon guys, am I right, or am I right on that one? So much respect for Kirk, but anyone who reeeaaaally knows their shit is aware he's not top of the pile. Still a bit of a god though...

He's on top of a pile all right.

 

[JBroll]

His solos never seemed great on their own - I guess people liked the rest of the songs so much that the solos couldn't completely ruin it, but playing Metallica just seems weird without something naughty on the television because that much mindless wankery needs at least *some* motivation...

Jeff

 

[AEL89]

lol. Metallica are awesome. I don't think they'd be the same, maybe not even as big and as influential as they are if Dave Mustaine was doing weird chromatic shredding still... and I love a bit of weird chromatic shred, don't get me wrong, especially from Dave Mustaine!

The issue here is Kirk's solos and what they mean to people like me, which is what makes metallica great. Metallica's music does lend its self to obligitaroy solos, but I honestly believe Hammett is the only dude for the job. That's just me though. I have no real problem with Hammet-haters.

The big picture I'm getting at is an amazing take speaks to people. The technical aspects don't always hold up and Kirk's solos are just one example. That being said, its good to know something is perfectly in line with the grid or in key and still makes you want to thrash around, or cry or smile. If you manage to get a musician to perform a take that makes you do all three, you my friend are Bob Rock...

 

[JBroll]

A big thing is that while a particularly 'impassioned' performance might have slight flaws, *flaws do not make feel* - a big point that some wankers tend to miss completely.

Jeff

 

[dcb]

I've yet to record a band where I didn't have to go back and retrack one of the instruments myself

Musicians suck.

i think about that all the time - retracking the whole album , hehe.

but then i feel giving too much of myself away, all the years i sat down and practiced my instrument to become the player i always wanted to be... giving that away for someone who should have done his homework... i dont know... they look like great musicians that they are not... but isnt that what a great producer should do ?

i played a solo here and there for bands that i produce though, but although its mentioned in the booklet - credit for great solos always go to the guitarplayers :-(

i think the major problem for us little low budget producers is :

if we let people walk away with how they actually sound, they will not come back, simply for the fact, that these guys are "low budget artists" , they are rather inexperienced or never took the time to practice days and days to tighten up their technique - without the help of a great producer they would never ever sound like "stars".
and if they were "big budget artists", they would not ever come to us...

i imagine tool wanting to produce an album with me, harhar. i think i wouldnt
dare to touch the scissor.

 

[dcb]

"Emotion" has been used as an excuse for "shit technique" for decades now.

you name it !
thats what i feel : the human factor is not "shit technique"

musicians mistake controlled discrepancies for uncontrolled discrepancies.

pro or simply trained musicians :

a great studio drummer will be able to play the snare slightly behind the click,
creating a certain feel
>> controlled and consciously <<

if you told him : play on top >> he could do that as well


amateur or "not so trained" musician :

might play the snare slightly behind the click, creating a certain feel <<
>>uncontrolled and unconsciously <<

if you told him to play on top

>> he would tell you to should the fuck up, because your killing his groove, might also tell you that he feels, the click is clicking out of time as an excuse
OR he only got 3 hours of sleep the night before...

 

[Fox Mulder]

I dont mind minor-sloppiness. BUT if the guitarist has a habit of holding his pick 45 degrees to the strings, I'll throw shit at his face.

 

[paladin shredder]

I think many of the mistakes we are talking about here, are mistakes not necessarily noticeable by the average listener. We, as music producers, have to dissect all the parts of music in order to judge what the average listener will find acceptable, or "good."

If YOU think the average listener is going to say, "this sounds like a mistake" or "this sounds bad" then you are obligated as a producer to get a better performance.

If the artist is unwilling to fix a mistake, just say "Ok, if you want people to think you suck then I think we should keep that take, if you can't do it any better."

 

[Mikaël-ange]

If the artist is unwilling to fix a mistake, just say "Ok, if you want people to think you suck then I think we should keep that take, if you can't do it any better."

Totally right but sometimes it's hard to deal with muscicians ego

 

[AEL89]

A big thing is that while a particularly 'impassioned' performance might have slight flaws, *flaws do not make feel* - a big point that some wankers tend to miss completely.

Jeff

damn true