How perfect should drums be quantized/edited?

[GuitarMaestro]

Hi there,

when mixing/editing bands with good drummers I really wonder if I should quantize the tracks at all and if so how much. I am talking about Drummers who sound great and play perfectly to the click but the feel you get is still not the same of todays perfectly quantized records.
I really wonder how producers like sneap/fredman/etc. approach this.
Do they quantize at all or do they only edit obvious timing mistakes? Do they "soft-quantize" with a setting like 80% or so?
I am not talking about situations where they have to work with bad drummers. But Bands like In Flames, Killswitch, Exodus, etc.
Or if you take Arch Enemy for example. I know these bands have great drummers, but they still can't be that perfect?

 

[Erkan]

Interesting, hope some good answers come.

I personally feel it's extremely boring to listen to something very "modern" and produced. When the kick drum sounds like it's a one sample/same velocity shit like some Guitar Pro file, I might as well just throw the music out the window.

I don't like when people use sound replacement to kill dynamics, however when they do it right and instead of killing, they bring a new level of dynamics to the mix etc... it's teh sex.

Let's hear it from experienced studio folks!

 

[aramism]

let that shit go.

 

[[UEAK]Clowd]

I have recorded with two fairly well-known producers and they put our drums 100% to the grid so I pretty much take that as an industry standard.

 

[eligortyphon06]

perfect drums for metal?

Well for starters, its pretty much a given that in faster material its going to require a bit of sample replacement, especially kick drums. If you're recording slower material, its not as important. As for dynamics, sample replacement doesn't neccessarily ruin them. When mixing, all it requires is patience, sometimes a LOT of patience. Be willing to spend a little time to get the best mix possible.

In most professional instances, even with the drummers you talk about, things like kick drums are almost always replaced, and time-aligned in many cases. Its about consistency, which is what gives drums that extra tight feel. Modern recording and mixing isn't about to trying to capture a 'live sound' on the record any more. Rather, live sound, should capture the tightness a good produced album can bring.

You want perfect drums? grab a copy of dimmu's In Sorte Diaboli. Nordstrom's work on that album is his ballsiest IMO.

 

[-Noodles-]

Hi there,

when mixing/editing bands with good drummers I really wonder if I should quantize the tracks at all and if so how much. I am talking about Drummers who sound great and play perfectly to the click but the feel you get is still not the same of todays perfectly quantized records.
I really wonder how producers like sneap/fredman/etc. approach this.
Do they quantize at all or do they only edit obvious timing mistakes? Do they "soft-quantize" with a setting like 80% or so?
I am not talking about situations where they have to work with bad drummers. But Bands like In Flames, Killswitch, Exodus, etc.
Or if you take Arch Enemy for example. I know these bands have great drummers, but they still can't be that perfect?

+1 to the dude who said "let that shit go".

If I wanted to add anything else, I'd just be rude.

 

[GuitarMaestro]

Thanks for your answers so far. Just two things I should have added:
1. I am not talking about using samples etc., just about the timing aspect
2. I dont care if you are for or against quantizing(aramism, noodles). I am no fan of it myself. But let's face it: You have to compete with whats out there and thats records with perfect sounding drummers! What I want to know is how the pros approach it...?

 

[aramism]

well i am neither a fan nor a critic. but if you get a good performance and the band is cool with it me personally as a fan i'd rather hear small imperfections.


that has generally not been the case lately but the tide seems to shift. at the same token, i think most of the musicians are not good enough to play what they write so they rely on it.

as an engineer or producer i would think the majority of the time your loyalty is to your client so if the standard or whatever is edited performances then so be it.

in a perfect world i'd rather hear everything without 100% hard editing as those are the truly classic albums and recordings. but it's not a perfect world and there are certain rules we all must play by.

 

[Sacha]

I'll only fix a mistake if I can hear it, I don't just line everything up to the grid. Once I can listen all the way through a few times without anything bothering me I leave it alone.

 

[Executioner213]

I think you kinda answered your own question in that "You have to compete with whats out there and thats records with perfect sounding drummers!"

Well, thats more than likely because there is some quantization going on with everything. It's probably less nessesary in most rock/pop recordings, but in metal when you got a lot more going on I'd say it's used quite a bit...even on records where the drummer is already *that* tight because there is always human error to be had.

 

[smy1]

I just listened to Faith No More's "Midlife Crisis" in the car today and I was annoyed and astounded by how "shaky" the drumming is when it comes to timing. The guy is all over the place and I really notice how I have gotten used to tight on-the-beat recordings. As long as the sounds don't sound like a machine gun, I prefer kicks and snares on the beat.

 

[deanbailey]

I'd say it's what the band and label want, next to what you feel comfortable doing.

The Irony is that with programmed drums, you purposefully make mistakes/alterations (grid mistakes and velocity differences) to get it to sound real, and with real drums you get it to sound as close to perfect as possible.

In this case if your drum tracks (assuming it's all micked up) are 100% to the grid, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing because the slight nuances in the playing that drum programed samples just do not contain, still maintain that realism regardless if it's robotic tight...Unless un-dynamic sampling comes into play...

 

[scorpio01169]

I personally think there are way too many drummers or wanna be drummers that are trying to be in bands so fast that they are not practicing or trying to get better. and there are way too many bands that are trying to get into the studio or get recorded with these drummers. I somewhat have chosen to stay away from software recording just so i can try and force drummers to try for better takes.

 

[aramism]

unless you are an established producer (not engineer, big difference) and have a big vote or you are working with a shitty band you really should just follow instructions as per your job or if you are halfway ambitious and believe in a better product via natural performance sell the band/label on the idea.

 

[scorpio01169]

unless you are an established producer (not engineer, big difference) and have a big vote or you are working with a shitty band you really should just follow instructions as per your job or if you are halfway ambitious and believe in a better product via natural performance sell the band/label on the idea.

thats it...I believe in a better product. yea if a band is paying me, yea i put up with poor drumming and have...But i don't like it one bit.

 

[joeymusicguy]

i quantize everything at 100% unless its not meant to be on time.

there are instruments and parts that are also meant to have play, i let those have their play of course...

most of the time though, drums are definately 100%, anything percussive related after that is much looser but still quantized

you have to keep in mind that 50% of a sound is its transient... if you get transients happening at exactley the same time, its going to be hard for the ear to decipher the difference between the instruments being played.

so you let the drummers natural inability to hit to drums at exactley the same time stay, you just make sure you move the beginning of the phrase on the grid

its also important that with tambourine or shaker tracks, that the hits aren't happening on the same exact time as the drum hits, they should be slightly behind the transients...

 

[joeymusicguy]

I'd say it's what the band and label want, next to what you feel comfortable doing.

The Irony is that with programmed drums, you purposefully make mistakes/alterations (grid mistakes and velocity differences) to get it to sound real, and with real drums you get it to sound as close to perfect as possible.

In this case if your drum tracks (assuming it's all micked up) are 100% to the grid, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing because the slight nuances in the playing that drum programed samples just do not contain, still maintain that realism regardless if it's robotic tight...Unless un-dynamic sampling comes into play...

this is a good point. the day i tried real drums after a long run with programming, i realized that quantizing the human performance was everything i was missing. i got really good at programming it like a human would perform it, but its too computerized. with tracking human performance, you can quantize so the timing is perfect and then the imperfections of the performance actually become desired.

its like the difference between a midi guitar and someone playing a real guitar, for me. night and day.

 

[crillemannen]

Every proffesionell studio quantize 100% on the grid unless the band ask for anything else. trust me i know from experience


Cheers

 

[crillemannen]

Interesting, hope some good answers come.

I personally feel it's extremely boring to listen to something very "modern" and produced. When the kick drum sounds like it's a one sample/same velocity shit like some Guitar Pro file, I might as well just throw the music out the window.

I don't like when people use sound replacement to kill dynamics, however when they do it right and instead of killing, they bring a new level of dynamics to the mix etc... it's teh sex.

Let's hear it from experienced studio folks!

Man then you are at the wrong forum lol!

 

[Ihsahn1981]

Press play, close your eyes, lean back and listen.
You will feel it in your gut when something is wrong.

I dont like 100% quantized drums.
The best drummers are the ones who makes the best mistakes

Thats just a personal opinion though.