Decibel's October Issue

[Some Bastard]

This could be taken to mean "Heavy metal is just heavy for the sake of heavy, there are no songs... but these guys, they have songs!"

This could also be taken to mean you're just as paranoid as your colleague

I think this sums up the entire problem right here.

They are really being clear in explaining what the problem is, but they are completely missing it.

If there actually is a "problem" (something I seriously doubt) you're the one who's missing it. What you're missing is that by reacting the way you do you're validating a lot of their points. Ahh, irony...

I ignored Mastodon live sets happening in the building I was already in both before and after they were signed. I can say my complete lack of giving a shit has nothing to do with their popularity.

So what happened? Did Mastodon fuck your sister or something? Or is it because some of them used to be in Today Is The Day and are therefore not 'tr00'? :Smug:

I wish someone would have stood up and said that this has been a part of metal for DECADES now. sheesh.

You've got a point there but that doesn't exactly count for all Metal, does it? Where's the 'literary quality' in (let's say) Autopsy or Cannibal Corpse? I don't see it.

 

[DBB]

Speaking of irony, thanks for proving me and that Darniello geezer right. Again.

Of course, you'll have to forgive me, I forget how narrow-minded and provincial I am sometines. Paranoid too to boot, but since cooridinated and concerted marketing campaigns designed to "brand" metal for certain demographics do not exist in your limited world hedged in by industry blinders, it is easy to throw that word around. Anyway, we have had our debate, and I'm moving forward, so carry on with proving how cosmopolitian you and the editorial staff member of decibel are and how benighted I am--it'll be worth a few chuckles if nothing else.

As soon as the major labels get involved, we’re all dead unless it’s really done the right way. The indies can kinda control that. That’s what happened with metal in the ’80s. As soon as the majors started getting involved and putting tons of money behind the bands, then they get a great review in The New York Times. As soon as that happens, you’re dead. Your parents go, “Oh, Johnny look at this, there’s this band you like that has a good review in The New York Times.” Then it’s over.

heh.

Heh X 2. I had forgotten about that one. You'll find many people outside of metal willing to call Matador a "fake indie," mostly people who really remember that indie derives from independent, the kind of people who read Punk Planet. These people are just absolutely oblivious and think that just because they don't acknowledge something it is not true or come up with pithy phrases to explain away legitamate concerns. Kemado is also a "fake indie" and is as capable of being about as independent as a jellyfish caught in a raging current.

And once again, of course, it has everything to do with perceptions of popularity and cultishness, and nothing to do with the financial, promotional and business practices of the major labels. Just keep repeating...."The Emperor has clothes, the emperor has clothes, the emperor has clothes."

 

[Some Bastard]

Of course, you'll have to forgive me, I forget how narrow-minded and provincial I am sometines. Paranoid too to boot, but since cooridinated and concerted marketing campaigns designed to "brand" metal for certain demographics do not exist in your limited world hedged in by industry blinders, it is easy to throw that word around. Anyway, we have had our debate, and I'm moving forward, so carry on with proving how cosmopolitian you and the editorial staff member of decibel are and how benighted I am--it'll be worth a few chuckles if nothing else.

Like I SAID, you big fuckin' crybaby!!

I'm not agreeing with that shitrag magazine you people here seem to be so obsessed about

I have never even read the bloody thing!!

...but then, since actual music does not exist in your limited world hedged in by conspiracy theories, and like the McCarthyist you are you insist on taking a fascist 'you are either for or against us'-stance blabla.... see how easy it is?

YES Mr LOTFP, I'm calling your buddy a FASCIST since he's using exactly those KKK debating techniques; Even though I have clearly stated I have never read that shitrag decibel magazine he's still accusing me of 'siding' with them! Gonna ban me now? Have I pissed on your floor now? Even though he's the one twisting my words?

 

[Some Bastard]

Disagreeing with someone is OK but the least you can do is be honest

 

[Jim LotFP]

I'm not agreeing with that shitrag magazine you people here seem to be so obsessed about.

I have never even read the bloody thing!!

I've never read anything from Decibel beyond what gets linked here, but from that I can tell you I disagree with them.

And you are agreeing with what they are saying (in the material that I have read), whether you have read it or not, whether you know you are agreeing with them or not.

 

[DBB]

YES Mr LOTFP, I'm calling your buddy a FASCIST since he's using exactly those KKK debating techniques; Even though I have clearly stated I have never read that shitrag decibel magazine he's still accusing me of 'siding' with them! Gonna ban me now? Have I pissed on your floor now? Even though he's the one twisting my words?

Hahahhahahhahah1!!!11!!. "Crybaby!" I'm not the one throwing tantrums and begging for someone to tell me to take my ball and go home, so I can run around and bitch to everyone how those mean ol' LotFP people couldn't even play nice with the Bastard because he was too much for them.

You really need to pay to attention to what you are doing, reading and writing...maybe you just hop on the computer and decide to type things without paying attention or perhaps you are just too thick to realize what is going on around you.

Here, I will try to explain it to you as simply as possible. It probably will not help, but I'll waste my time, and I'll not even cry to Jim about how you are being Nathan Bedford Forrest. Jesus...this has become ludicrous.

1.This is a thread about decibel's response to my article in the form of a roundtable discussion. The people for this roundtable discussion were picked with the clear intent of having no real, substantial dissenting voices in the article.

Cast of characters:

Brian Slagel: CEO of Metal Blade Records. The piss poor attempt at having someone impeccably "metal" at the table that is just silly on so many levels--none of which need to be explored, since he is clueless.

Kory Grow: Decibel reviewer who is fond of comparing Missy Elliot to Nachtmystium and call it analysis in a review. No need to spell out where he stands in the debate.

Keith Abrahamsson: Founder of Kemado Records, "hipster metal" central. Of course, he is going to be coming out against The Sword and all this.

John Darnielle: Yes he is in the Mountian Goats, fool, but he is also a contributor to decibel. More specifically, he is an editorialist who contributes the column "South Pole Dispatch" which appears on the very last page of the magazine. In many newsweeklies here in the States, that is the pride of place and where the most prominent editorialist gets to have his say. To call Darnielle an editorialist does violence to the term, though, since he just writes these breezy, ironic pieces that are often nonsensical and an utter waste of ink--beyond inflating his own snide sense of self worth.

Okay...it got a bit complicated there, take a deep breath and stand up for a minute and we will continue.

2. I posted a link to the article from the decibel website that is reproduced from the magazine http://www.decibelmagazine.com/features_detail.aspx?id=4912

3. You, yes you Mr. Bastard, read the article and then pulled out a quote from Darnielle which is the most common and cliched line of attack someone would use to smear anyone concerned about all the issues surrounding "hipster metal."

Let us review.

1. You read an article from decibel

2. You picked out quotes from an editorialist from decibel who is leading and guiding the roundtable discussion and agree with it wholeheartedly--mainly because you share a lot in common with the type of people who populate decibel, but that is neither here or there for our purposes.

3. Then after reading an article from decibel and selecting a quote from an editorial writer from decibel who was chairing the decibel roundtable discussion to attack LotFPyou turn around and then pitch a fit because I accurately characterize you as agreeing with the decibel line.

Get real man or start paying more attention to what the hell you are doing.

that Darnielle dude raises some very valid points

Of course he does....of course he does.

 

[Some Bastard]

I've never read anything from Decibel beyond what gets linked here, but from that I can tell you I disagree with them.

And you are agreeing with what they are saying (in the material that I have read), whether you have read it or not, whether you know you are agreeing with them or not.

O brother, this is exactly what I mean! "They"? "Them"? Does me agreeing with just two things one guy says suddenly make me a Decibel subscriber? Am I now Mr Darnielle's best friend just because I think he makes one or two valid points? Puh-leeze!

Yeah, I have read the article and I just don't get the "problem" you guys apparently see in it. It's an article in a mainstream magazine. They're talking about The Sword, ferchrissakes! A "hype" band, practically a novelty act, that will very probably be forgotten next year. Most of these guys have probably never even heard of Akercocke or Slough Feg. They're to Heavy Metal what "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" is to Horror. Like you said, they're "comparing Missy Elliot to Nachtmystium and call it analysis in a review". And you people take those guys seriously?

Regardless of that mr. Darnielle says two very sensible things:
"When it comes down to their scene, metal fans are purists. They don’t want outside attention. Any time there’s any band that can make any noise outside of that circle, they’re going to brand them as poseurs, false metal, or hipster metal"

Now what is untrue about that? Lots of Metal fans are downright proud of their purism. Or are you denying it?

"I think if bands start insisting on sticking in their own little neighborhoods and refuse to branch out, then the scene dies"

I've said it before: Heavy Metal doesn't sound like it did 20 years ago because bands have actually branched out, picking up influences from other genres like punk, hardcore, prog, ambient etc... Or are you denying this as well?

2. You picked out quotes from an editorialist from decibel who is leading and guiding the roundtable discussion and agree with it wholeheartedly--mainly because you share a lot in common with the type of people who populate decibel, but that is neither here or there for our purposes.

Do I?

It is very important to you to divide people into 'types', right? Everything just has to be black & white, doesn't it?

I guess there is no point in telling you then that life is more complicated than that. That having a close-minded fundamentalist view on things is a pointless and in some cases even dangerous thing. Anyway you got me all wrong, since you seem to think that me making fun of your purism is my attempt at being 'breezy' and 'ironic' and I don't take Heavy Metal seriously or something. But since you've already made up your mind.... Guess I won't send you that CD then. You already know what 'type' of person I am so you could probably write a review without having heard any of our music :Smug:

You guys wanna tackle a real problem? Do something on NSBM. Personally I think that's much more dangerous than wether or not Sunn0))) are Heavy Metal or what Lars Ulrich thinks of The Sword.

 

[BenMech]

SB - This is a Forest and the Trees conundrum. It's not us versus them for the present tense.

You see the trees as tiny unrelated details. Nothing matters to you, since you're a happy consumer of just about anything.

We see forests, patches of bigger patterns. We answer questions like "Why is this going on", "How is this going on", "who instigated", "where will these provocations eventually lead",and so forth.

That's called Critical thinking. It is NOT always negative, or designed to demolish, as you clearly infer in ALL your talking points.

Btw, DBB did begin to discuss NSBM in False Metal with the discussion of Demoniac, and its carefully blanded out power metal successor Dragonforce. By using this examples, Dave called forth the eventual pattern that the hateful artists intend to hide most of their designs and beliefs in mass-friendly ways. Subliminal advertising for the apathetic or easily amused.

Be thankful we predict this pattern, especially in your mother country Germany and nations both east and west.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Bastard is Dutch.

...and it is not that "you" (who's that?) are the first to unveil the dealings of NSBM infiltrating the mainstream. Coincidentally, it's two German authors that have recently published a large book on the topic.

 

[Some Bastard]

SB - This is a Forest and the Trees conundrum. It's not us versus them for the present tense.

You see the trees as tiny unrelated details. Nothing matters to you, since you're a happy consumer of just about anything.

We see forests, patches of bigger patterns. We answer questions like "Why is this going on", "How is this going on", "who instigated", "where will these provocations eventually lead",and so forth.

That's called Critical thinking. It is NOT always negative, or designed to demolish, as you clearly infer in ALL your talking points.

Btw, DBB did begin to discuss NSBM in False Metal with the discussion of Demoniac, and its carefully blanded out power metal successor Dragonforce. By using this examples, Dave called forth the eventual pattern that the hateful artists intend to hide most of their designs and beliefs in mass-friendly ways. Subliminal advertising for the apathetic or easily amused.

Be thankful we predict this pattern, especially in your mother country Germany and nations both east and west.

*sigh* Another black & white-thinker

And what's with the "we"? Afraid to think for yourself?

I care about lots of things and if you really think I'm an uncritical "happy consumer of just about anything" you've got me all wrong. I'm very critical when it comes to music but something should at least be worth criticizing. Genre-nitpicking and blowing up some silly trend to an honest-to-god 'problem' is not the same thing as 'caring' or being 'critical'.

This thing has happened before. Suddenly certain kinds of music will cross-pollinate and purists will cry outrage. It happened to Jazz, to Punk, to Hiphop and yes, it has happened to Metal before. I have personally seen it happen in the late 80's, when punk guys (who before always hated Metal) suddenly developed an interest in Metal. Some people whined that those Punk guys should leave their beloved genre alone and of course they eventually did that when they grew tired of it. Metal people have done the same with other genres (see Anthrax, Death Angel, Sacred Reich) and the results were mostly pretty painful. That all came and went, and so will this. Does anyone here really believe that those decibel-people will still be interested in Metal a couple of years from now? Of course not, they will have found another bandwagon to jump on by then.

O btw, I'm Dutch not German

 

[DBB]

We see forests, patches of bigger patterns. We answer questions like "Why is this going on", "How is this going on", "who instigated", "where will these provocations eventually lead",and so forth.

That's called Critical thinking. It is NOT always negative, or designed to demolish, as you clearly infer in ALL your talking points.

You are a strange cat, Mr. Mech, but a good man and a better human being. I salute you for being able to look beyond the differences we have to see the bigger picture, a rare quality in this day and age.

It is very important to you to divide people into 'types', right? Everything just has to be black & white, doesn't it?

I know…no one controls you and you are a pristine individual standing in the vanguard sharing no commonalities with anyone or influenced by anything. I could talk about how decibel is certainly trolling for a “type,” it would be called a demographic in their world, but instead of typing out a longwinded post, I will simply say this, the entire marketing apparatus, from Burger King’s “Have it your way!” to Metal Maniacs “It Stands Alone” tagline is selling things to people through an inchoate group identity that claims everyone is an utterly absolutely unique individual. A master marketing stroke in the larger advertising industry and a profound cultural shift that has numerous consequences that I am not going into because it would result in sprawling, rambling madman post


Each human being is different, true, but we form our identities in relation to other human beings, this is not “black and white” thinking, merely the reality of existence. That we are being bombarded with messages shaping us over into atomized beings who want to constantly place our self in opposition to anything that would make us have something in common with another is a good way to sell products to fill the void left by meaningful relationships and meaningful “types” that enrich and edify our lives. Decibel is mired down in this world of jocular, unteathered meaningless hyper-individuality and so are you to a certain extent, Bastard.

You guys wanna tackle a real problem? Do something on NSBM.

It is coming. The first and only promo I received was a promo from a NSBM-lite band from Lithuania (waaaaay back when I first started writing for hellridemusic.com). I actually have numerous word documents full of evidence and material on this subject saved on my computer. A “chapter” dealing with this question was originally to be included in “Impure Metal” but it was cut when that article became too long and the NSBM angle seemed to be a digression. And it really did not fit into the parameters of “false metal” per se.

Also, to be honest, it is something that I have put off intentionally, when I sit down and say what I have to say about NSBM it is going to alienate a shitload of people and make many more uncomfortable. It is a nasty, dark subject that people don’t want to look at too closely.

But now I’ve been backed into a corner, so to speak, (not by your request but by larger events), and there is going to be a significant section on the NSBM phenomenon in “Market Metal.” People are going to be very surprised at how it pops up in the course of the article and the connections that will be made.

I can guarantee that it is going to make your hair stand up on end. All along I thought that the major and broad issues (the lack of true journalism in the metal media, metal as a free-floating term which can be applied to anything and everything) explored in both “Impure Metal” and “False Metal” were related to NSBM, and I have decided that this is certainly the case—the discussion of Demoniac and Dragonforce was merely a very quick peek behind the curtain of what is to come. The discussion of NSBM will not be something separate and distinct from the issues raised in my previous articles—just another piece of the puzzle.

But don’t worry, some new age National Socialists and old-fashioned fascists are going to be smashed, and the lazy, apathetic and amoral operatives in the metal media who condone this tripe are going to be exposed as mindless whores and spineless sycophants.

The time is approaching…but still off in the distance. It is a matter of me clearing a few obstacles that are not allowing me to concentrate on metal writing as intently as I have over the past year.

There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth when the day arrives, though.

 

[Jim LotFP]

A master marketing stroke in the larger advertising industry and a profound cultural shift that has numerous consequences that I am not going into because it would result in sprawling, rambling madman post

Please, indulge us, in a new thread if necessary.

 

[BenMech]

You are a strange cat, Mr. Mech, but a good man and a better human being. I salute you for being able to look beyond the differences we have to see the bigger picture, a rare quality in this day and age.

Thank you. I certainly haven't made too many friends for being me. Hell, Glenn Harveston and Deron banned me from his asslicking PPUSA subforum for speaking my mind, at an entirely unrelated forum location.

(snip)It is coming. The first and only promo I received was a promo from a NSBM-lite band from Lithuania (waaaaay back when I first started writing for hellridemusic.com). I actually have numerous word documents full of evidence and material on this subject saved on my computer. A “chapter” dealing with this question was originally to be included in “Impure Metal” but it was cut when that article became too long and the NSBM angle seemed to be a digression. And it really did not fit into the parameters of “false metal” per se.

Thank you, and I disagree about it not fitting,

Also, to be honest, it is something that I have put off intentionally, when I sit down and say what I have to say about NSBM it is going to alienate a shitload of people and make many more uncomfortable. It is a nasty, dark subject that people don’t want to look at too closely.

But now I’ve been backed into a corner, so to speak, (not by your request but by larger events), and there is going to be a significant section on the NSBM phenomenon in “Market Metal.” People are going to be very surprised at how it pops up in the course of the article and the connections that will be made.

Excellent. I look forward to this.

I can guarantee that it is going to make your hair stand up on end. All along I thought that the major and broad issues (the lack of true journalism in the metal media, metal as a free-floating term which can be applied to anything and everything) explored in both “Impure Metal” and “False Metal” were related to NSBM, and I have decided that this is certainly the case—the discussion of Demoniac and Dragonforce was merely a very quick peek behind the curtain of what is to come. The discussion of NSBM will not be something separate and distinct from the issues raised in my previous articles—just another piece of the puzzle.

I suspected as much. Why nobody else would, I couldn't begin to understand.

But don’t worry, some new age National Socialists and old-fashioned fascists are going to be smashed, and the lazy, apathetic and amoral operatives in the metal media who condone this tripe are going to be exposed as mindless whores and spineless sycophants.

The time is approaching…but still off in the distance. It is a matter of me clearing a few obstacles that are not allowing me to concentrate on metal writing as intently as I have over the past year.

There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth when the day arrives, though.

As much as I'd love to see names named, someone is going to end up suing you for slander.

 

[Jim LotFP]

As much as I'd love to see names named, someone is going to end up suing you for slander.

As long as his writing continues to be based on documented references, how could they?

 

[Some Bastard]

I know…no one controls you and you are a pristine individual standing in the vanguard sharing no commonalities with anyone or influenced by anything. I could talk about how decibel is certainly trolling for a “type,” it would be called a demographic in their world, but instead of typing out a longwinded post, I will simply say this, the entire marketing apparatus, from Burger King’s “Have it your way!” to Metal Maniacs “It Stands Alone” tagline is selling things to people through an inchoate group identity that claims everyone is an utterly absolutely unique individual. A master marketing stroke in the larger advertising industry and a profound cultural shift that has numerous consequences that I am not going into because it would result in sprawling, rambling madman post

Each human being is different, true, but we form our identities in relation to other human beings, this is not “black and white” thinking, merely the reality of existence. That we are being bombarded with messages shaping us over into atomized beings who want to constantly place our self in opposition to anything that would make us have something in common with another is a good way to sell products to fill the void left by meaningful relationships and meaningful “types” that enrich and edify our lives. Decibel is mired down in this world of jocular, unteathered meaningless hyper-individuality and so are you to a certain extent, Bastard.

See? There you're doing it again. Everytime someone disagrees with you it's translated into Versus/Black & White/For-Against, and meanwhile you keep trying to put that Decibel-tag on me, ignoring every point I make and twisting some of my words into something I never said. If you actually met me you would realise I'm not "mired down in this world of jocular, unteathered meaningless hyper-individuality" but for you I just need to be. It doesn't even occur to you that besides a lifelong music geek I'm a musician myself, and I have a somewhat different way of listening to music and therefore know that some of those melodies and chord changes common in Metal aren't all that different from certain melodies and chord changes in (let's say) Blues or Jazz or Classical. And I therefore think some of your purist views on music are somewhat laughable.

I understand though, that way you don't have to respond to anything I stated here. I guess a world view like yours just has to be defined by borders and leaves no room for an alternate viewpoint.

Of course when someone agrees with you it's another story. That's OK too though, your shameless ass kissing is actually quite amusing. You're a funny little clique, you and your admirers

Good luck with the NSBM article.

 

[DBB]

NYC NPR on "Hipster Metal."

I almost get a courtesy plug here.

 

[Jim LotFP]

NYC NPR on "Hipster Metal."

I almost get a courtesy plug here.

I love the host hamming it up when reading song titles and plugging Mudrian's book. So interested, that guy.

Ooohhh... GENRE POLICE!

 

[wildfyr]

It is coming. The first and only promo I received was a promo from a NSBM-lite band from Lithuania (waaaaay back when I first started writing for hellridemusic.com). I actually have numerous word documents full of evidence and material on this subject saved on my computer. A “chapter” dealing with this question was originally to be included in “Impure Metal” but it was cut when that article became too long and the NSBM angle seemed to be a digression. And it really did not fit into the parameters of “false metal” per se.

Also, to be honest, it is something that I have put off intentionally, when I sit down and say what I have to say about NSBM it is going to alienate a shitload of people and make many more uncomfortable. It is a nasty, dark subject that people don’t want to look at too closely.

But now I’ve been backed into a corner, so to speak, (not by your request but by larger events), and there is going to be a significant section on the NSBM phenomenon in “Market Metal.” People are going to be very surprised at how it pops up in the course of the article and the connections that will be made.

I can guarantee that it is going to make your hair stand up on end. All along I thought that the major and broad issues (the lack of true journalism in the metal media, metal as a free-floating term which can be applied to anything and everything) explored in both “Impure Metal” and “False Metal” were related to NSBM, and I have decided that this is certainly the case—the discussion of Demoniac and Dragonforce was merely a very quick peek behind the curtain of what is to come. The discussion of NSBM will not be something separate and distinct from the issues raised in my previous articles—just another piece of the puzzle.

But don’t worry, some new age National Socialists and old-fashioned fascists are going to be smashed, and the lazy, apathetic and amoral operatives in the metal media who condone this tripe are going to be exposed as mindless whores and spineless sycophants.

The time is approaching…but still off in the distance. It is a matter of me clearing a few obstacles that are not allowing me to concentrate on metal writing as intently as I have over the past year.

There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth when the day arrives, though.

I'm unfamiliar with your writing but this sounds very interesting. Exposing a soft white underbelly might indeed cause weeping and gnashing of teeth. I look forward to your article. Please keep us informed about its publication. Thanks!

 

[DBB]

Exposing a soft white underbelly might indeed cause weeping and gnashing of teeth. I look forward to your article. Please keep us informed about its publication. Thanks!

It will. I'll piss off far more people than I convince with the article, but it needs be said--I just need to find the time.

I love the host hamming it up when reading song titles and plugging Mudrian's book. So interested, that guy.

Tools all around. Mudrian claiming that Wolfmother has anything to do with black and death metal is insane and idiotic.

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

Dave, you're being a little charitable towards NSBM. Much of the 'movement' consists of people that figured out that NSBM is a good label under which to keep making the same crappy hardcore they cut their teeth on - they're at least as 'false' as crap like The Sword. And, of course, the movement's money men have even less interest in metal than the usual run of profiteers.