Does it matter if altruism is "natural"?

neither Hitler or Bin Laden's actions are directed positively to those who their actions directly affect though, I think that is a fairly substantial difference... Mother Theresa's actions would have to be considered more in line with what the recipients of her actions actually wanted to happen.

so 'direct'ness is what matters? the indirect deaths from the atom bomb wasn't so morally bad as the explosion deaths, because they only meant to kill people in the massive thermal range?

Am I not a recipient of every action the police take against a "criminal"? their actions are 'directed positively' to negative effects on 'those who their actions directly affect', just as Hitler or Bin Laden's were.
 
In case I was not clear enough, I'm not trying to assert some sort of moral righteousness for altruism, just define the term in a useful manner... leaving it at 'we're all inherently self oriented and do what we want' means the term is entirely useless.

With that out of the way, yes, I think 'directness' is of use in defining altruistic behaviour. If the action directly affects those others who benefit from it *and* want it, with little or no direct gain for the self beyond the internal happyness mechanics associated with such an action, then I think altruism is a pretty good term for it.

I do not think police are altruistic, nor would most people, I'd imagine? Must say I can't complain about the police and Hitler comparison though :lol:
 
Must say I can't complain about the police and Hitler comparison though :lol:

Actually, Hitler's aims were much more lofty and visionary than all that. Far too much regarding the Reich is automatically ascribed to Hitler, when so much was truly developed, implemented and carried out by others. Now, in this case, regarding the modern police, a comparison to Himmler, or more specifically Heydrich may indeed be appropriate in many ways. The police(Gestapo)were like unto a paramilitary, political organization all their own, with great power, autonomy and latitude. This is not entirely unlike America's federal police organizations at all.(BATF, FBI, ICE, etc.)
 
With that out of the way, yes, I think 'directness' is of use in defining altruistic behaviour. If the action directly affects those others who benefit from it *and* want it, with little or no direct gain for the self beyond the internal happyness mechanics associated with such an action, then I think altruism is a pretty good term for it.

but is it useful to speak in terms of altruism, say, to suggest it is altruistic to rescue a child from an ignorant or abusive parent? The parent who wants a punching bag or wants the kid but just isn't good as looking after it will be affected, but I guess you'd say it was only indirectly, because it was directly for the child... but the parent indeed needs to be deprived directly, that isn't just a mishap that was avoidable, it was the expectation of your behavior being successful in liberating a child to a better life, so in a sense it really needs to be considered direct because it is in fact the means through which the good end could not be achieved without.
Do all direct effects need to be positive for an act to be regarded as altruistic? or alternatively, if an act such as exampled can't thus be considered altruistic (since to go out of your way to help someone else you must hurt a third person in the process), does it really matter that it isn't altruistic? is it somehow inferior to donating a dollar to a hobo, since that has no direct negative effect which the lifechanging salvation of the child does?
If something 'less altruistic' seems to be of more importance, what is the real value in the term? If we do acknowledge child services as a greater positive contribution than a dollar to a drunkard, then do we need a new word superior to 'altruist' to esteem them by since altruist, in such definition is inapplicable? We wouldn't want to say 'you're a good person, but you're no altruist' as if somehow they who devote their lives to hurting abusive people to help innocent victims don't measure up to the man who effortlessly throws spare change in a busker's guitar case doing nothing but directly positive acts.
If we can categorize people by their actions and label them a hero, a villian, a gentleman, a concerned citizen, and so on, without giving moral esteem, status, hierarchy to the groups, what good is being or not being one or the other thing? There must be an implicit 'better to be an altruist than a selfish man' concept, but do we not imagine, with altruism so defined that there is something more noble/respectable/etc than being an altruist? what are we to call that if altruism is reserved for even the most petty beneficial acts? It seems we'd need to radically rethink our perception of altruism as some sort of relevant category, and perhaps praise 'heroes' instead, altruism becoming a rather unimportant concept, and those who will kill tyrants and murderers, though by no means altruistic, the pinnacle of social esteem.
 
Actually, Hitler's aims were much more lofty and visionary than all that. Far too much regarding the Reich is automatically ascribed to Hitler, when so much was truly developed, implemented and carried out by others. Now, in this case, regarding the modern police, a comparison to Himmler, or more specifically Heydrich may indeed be appropriate in many ways. The police(Gestapo)were like unto a paramilitary, political organization all their own, with great power, autonomy and latitude. This is not entirely unlike America's federal police organizations at all.(BATF, FBI, ICE, etc.)

Or the NKVD, or any other ideologically-motivated police cadre. I forget the name of the one in ancient Rome.

The problem with power is that it needs to be. And if it's gonna be, it has to be strong and often ruthless.

:zombie:
 
Seditious - I think you pose good questions :)
I guess the term altruism also bears with it some weight of social conditioning. If society at large deems something to be of benefit, then an action taken by an individual with no external reward would probably be considered altruistic. I don't think it's a particularly precise term, somewhere in between my two attempts at defining it I think is what most peoples conceptions of it would be. I believe this present attempt probably allays some of the issues you bring up - or at least replaces an absence of critique with the at times apparently useless critique of 'society' :)

I do agree that someone else may rightly speak of an altruistic action, but you or I may judge it a poor action. I think altruism can be associated with 'good' in a very loose, socially bound manner, (open to all manner of individual interpretation of course) but not necessarily on an individual, specific level.

Not sure if that last bit is very clear at all, but I'll post it and think a little more again...
 
Do you actually think my rough attempts at defining the term are wrong? Seems to me you are likely to resent the present social norm enough that you would wish to cast anything with it as a foundation in the gobbledegook category, regardless of the actual gobbledegook level present.
 
Do you actually think my rough attempts at defining the term are wrong?

There they go again, thinking in right and wrong.

You can either view argument as collaboration or combat, and I'm viewing it as collaboration, so I'm trying to make your definition more exact.

Don't hate me because I'm half-black, half-Jewish.
 
Sorry, I couldn't really work out how to include 'altuism is gobbledegook' very seamlessly in my own attempts ;) I guess I'll try to collaborate harder next time...
 
If society at large deems something to be of benefit, then an action taken by an individual with no external reward would probably be considered altruistic.

Dumping toxic waste into rivers for profit is "considered" successful.

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