Does your DAW software kill creativity?

[Carrier Flux]

POST EDITED for being an ass.

I'll try Cubase, I hear a lot about it. SX is so damned expensive. $600. I wonder if Steinberg offers a demo...? No way I'm dropping that much just to TRY it.

why was stringy's post edited for being an ass? 006 was being quite the ass first

Stringy: my main complaint with the reading I've done about traktion is that it just looks cheesy. The workaround for a lack of dedicated mixbusses is pretty terrible, and using mixbusses is required if you're going to do any actual mixing. so the mixing aspect of this software will be counterintuitive; contrary to your other experiences with the software

don't listen to 006. I mean he IS right, but he's not really trying to convince you of anything. other than that he's being a bitch

 

[stringyo]

why was stringy's post edited for being an ass? 006 was being quite the ass first

Stringy: my main complaint with the reading I've done about traktion is that it just looks cheesy. The workaround for a lack of dedicated mixbusses is pretty terrible, and using mixbusses is required if you're going to do any actual mixing. so the mixing aspect of this software will be counterintuitive; contrary to your other experiences with the software

don't listen to 006. I mean he IS right, but he's not really trying to convince you of anything. other than that he's being a bitch

I edited it, lol! Even if he was coming down on me, he did have a few points. I came back and replied to him in a harsh manner, and later thought that it wasn't necessary. I really do need to just sit down and walk through one of these programs step-by-step.

About the mix bussing, I know EXACTLY what you mean man. That was one of my biggest complaints with Tracktion and the biggest reason I am looking around to upgrade. Tracktion 2 addressed the issue and added busses, but it is still quite an unnatural process. I also like console views, Tracktion doesn't have it.

Also, Tracktion 2's audio engine actually feels LESS stable than the original Tracktion 1's.

I downloaded the demo for Ableton's Live 5 and I am REALLY liking it so far. Your computer keyboard can work as a pseudo-MIDI keyboard and it kicks fucking ass! The piano roll MIDI sequencing is really strong IMO, nice access to all the options and variables. Good keyboard hotkeys, etc. I'm liking how the punch recording is laid out too. The addition of bussing and a console view really give it a huge advantage over Tracktion also. The only thing that worries me is that I think it only has 2 busses, unlike Sonar where you could create as many as you wanted.

I don't know if Live 5 is considered "professional" software, but at this point I say fuck "professional," if it works then it works. I still want to try Cubase though.

Anybody else have any other recommendation for DAW softare? I'm running PC and I really wanted to try Digital Performer...damnit.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

Not all...

Sonar has been heaven sent since day one and it has only been getting better.

I used Sonar/CWPA for about five years, and was a total diehard... That is, until I found SawStudio.

 

[Carrier Flux]

I used Sonar/CWPA for about five years, and was a total diehard... That is, until I found SawStudio.

I've heard good things about this SawStudio. I'm going to have to look into it. I really like sonar but there are some things that bug me (buggy drag and drop, weird crap going on with midi takes etc)...part of me doesn't want to switch for the exact same workflow reasons stringy was complaining about..hehehe


and stringy, yeah once you realize the power of the mixbus you're going to wonder how you lived without it. Sonar might not be the hottest shit out there (god damn does it lack a decent side-chain compressor option, fuckers), but the mixbuss flexibility has become invaluable to me.

 

[stringyo]

What the HELL!?!?!?! Live 5 doesn't have the ability to change time sigs!!!!!

Well, this program is out.

 

[chadsxe]

I used Sonar/CWPA for about five years, and was a total diehard... That is, until I found SawStudio.

I keep hearing you mention this. First why the change. Second why do you like it better. One thing I really dig about Sonar is the fact that Cakewalk makes it. Cakewalk is a company that in my opinion cares. They are really pushing to makes there products better and pioneer some new stuff.

 

[Carrier Flux]

I keep hearing you mention this. First why the change. Second why do you like it better. One thing I really dig about Sonar is the fact that Cakewalk makes it. Cakewalk is a company that in my opinion cares. They are really pushing to makes there products better and pioneer some new stuff.

From the reading I've done on sawstudio there are two major advantages:

A) the program was written in assembly language. what this means is that it functions FAST AS FUCK. no glitches when zooming in and out or editing etc. You can run a ridiculous number of built in EQ's and comps etc. What I'm not sure about is how much this helps with plugs like C4. if C4 still eats up 10% of my CPU power, the slick interface isn't worth quite so much.

b) hotkey assignable programable workspaces. you can really tailor what's laid out and where.

drawbacks:

A) it's like $3000 US.

B) one guy supports it. period. he's pretty hilarious and apparently very good about patching the software, but if he knocks off you're screwed.

 

[chadsxe]

From the reading I've done on sawstudio there are two major advantages:

A) the program was written in assembly language. what this means is that it functions FAST AS FUCK. no glitches when zooming in and out or editing etc. You can run a ridiculous number of built in EQ's and comps etc. What I'm not sure about is how much this helps with plugs like C4. if C4 still eats up 10% of my CPU power, the slick interface isn't worth quite so much.

b) hotkey assignable programable workspaces. you can really tailor what's laid out and where.

drawbacks:

A) it's like $3000 US.

B) one guy supports it. period. he's pretty hilarious and apparently very good about patching the software, but if he knocks off you're screwed.

I guess that is a give and take. I have no problems with performance in Sonar so I don't find the "quoted" performance gains an advantage. $3000 sounds way step for a hosting program.

The C4 really eats up 10% of your cpu. Wow that is a lot.

 

[korpse pop]

If you enjoy making music with Tracktion then why to change your program just for the sake of upgrading your software ?
I think when you're composing songs and recording new ideas down, a simple sequencer will do perfectly. When you want to record with professional quality you could then go to record at a pro studio as well. That's how I view it anyway.
I currently use Tracktion 1 for writing songs and recording demos and I don't honestly need anything more than Tracktion has right now. I'm planning to purchase Cubase SX someday, but I could still continue using Tracktion for writing and use Cubase or some other bigger software for mixing etc.
When writing music, the most intuitive software around wins in my book.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

I keep hearing you mention this. First why the change. Second why do you like it better. One thing I really dig about Sonar is the fact that Cakewalk makes it. Cakewalk is a company that in my opinion cares. They are really pushing to makes there products better and pioneer some new stuff.

Ok, I'll try to be brief. Here's why I switched to SawStudio.

#1) It's written in assembler. The closest thing to machine level code. Now, some will say it's impossible for a programmer to beat a C complier, but Saw's programmer has been writing assembler since 1981. Long story short: It's faster than lightning. Case in point: Sonar 3's .exe file is 17.9 megabytes in size. SawStudio's is 1.34 megabytes (not a typo) yet has more features. You tell me who has the tighter code. You have no idea how powerful your machine is until you've run something that's been written in assembler and then try to tax your machine as hard as possible. Sonar is a slideshow in comparison.

#2) It doesn't spread itself thru Windows. Want to uninstall? Delete the directory, that's it. The only registry hook is the Saw desktop icon. It stays away from Windows bloat code like the plauge.

#3) It has the best tech support I've ever encountered. Got a question? Ask the dude who wrote it. It's that simple. I once stumbled on a bug, and he had a patch for it the next day. Try getting that out of the Cakewalk guys.

#4) Nonstandard keyboard controls optimized for audio. This is a slightly more difficult concept to understand.... However, most audio apps use the same keyboard controls that word processors use. This was designed from the ground up for audio. It takes some time to get used to, but once learned, it's easy to understand why Saw took this route.
After I learned Saw's interface, I sold my Mackie control. It became a very expensive paperweight.

#5) Channel strip: These just plain fucking rule. The channel EQ & comps are from the "ultra clean" variety. I rarely reach for anything else. Sidechain your brains out...

#6) Routing. Yes, you can do pretty much the same sort of mix buss routing that you can in Sonar (very cool Sonar feature, Btw) and have all sorts of crazy configs.

#7) VST, DirectX, & Saw native plugin support with latency compensation. Also a "auto track FX bypass" to free up CPU over the blank spaces. You think the C4 sounds good? You should hear this thing in action! Jeez, talk about clean! Sonoris Multiband

BTW, about plugins... because the engine runs so fast, even bloated stuff runs better. I've ran 12 individual C4 comps & never even hiccuped. Not to mention Eq's, comps & reverbs on top of that!

#8) Layers. Record six tracks on top of each other and change them in & out of the mix instantaneously..... over the whole 72 tracks if you want to. I had a project a while back where we cut drums to a click & did 12 mikes & four takes each. So, I was able to switch between four separate takes on 12 tracks without stopping playback. No other software can pull this off. BTW, it's great for comping guitar solos too.

#9) Run 6 machines together via tcp/ip. Need more power or tracks? Add another computer. I know a few Saw users who do foley & scoring work for movies that use this method. So far, I haven't run out of CPU power, but it's nice to know if I do, I'm not screwed.

#10) Soft edge. No clicks from edits or punch ins. EVER. Adds it automatically at the head & tail of every region & is user customizable. I begged the Sonar guys for years for something like this.... no luck.

#11) NO COPY PROTECTION Bob doesn't treat his users like criminals. After hearing about nightmares with the iLok system, I'm greatful for this.

#12) It's $300 usd for the basic version, $1200 for the Lite version & $2500 for the full. I started with the lite & upgraded to full over 2 years. There's a cool upgrade path with all sorts of discounts, plus you can trade up. I.E. if you buy the basic & then move up to lite, your initial $300 is put against your next purchase. If you do it thru a V.I.P. affiliate, you get an additional $300 discount. Suddenly a $1200 upgrade becomes $600. There's also a monthly payment plan option as well.
I realize $2500 USD is steep. Believe me, 3 years ago when the US dollar cost $1.60 Canadian, I was very put off. But, when you price it against a full blown Pro Tools system, it's a steal.

BTW, I did Unrestrained! Magazine's "Best album of 2004" on the basic version.

One last thing: It works. Flawlessly. If Bob kicked off tomorrow, I wouldn't need to upgrade for the next 10 years. I'd be totally happy working with what I have right now.


-0z-

 

[Kenneth R.]

soft edges... *drool*

 

[Carrier Flux]

soft edges... *drool*

yeah no shit!!

sonar 5 has something called "remove DC offset during recording". does this have the same affect as soft edges? I'm assuming soft edges makes it so you don't get a loud snap in between two adjacent takes correct? and I'm wondering if "remove DC offset" has the same result..hmm

 

[Razorjack]

yeah no shit!!

sonar 5 has something called "remove DC offset during recording". does this have the same affect as soft edges? I'm assuming soft edges makes it so you don't get a snap in between two adjacent takes correct? and I'm wondering if "remove DC offset" has the same result..hmm

Good editing will get rid of the pop's, I don't get why anyone would care about 'soft edges' or is it just me who actually enjoys editing audio?

 

[Carrier Flux]

ok from my reading DC offset has nothing to do with pops in between takes. I feel a bit like a chump.

ok so let me get this straight when it comes to soft edges.

with soft edges if I say, have a guitar take, cut out a few seconds in the middle of it, and butt up together the first and last parts, I will not get a pop when the play passes through the point they are butted up against each other at? is that correct?

 

[Glenn Fricker]

Good editing will get rid of the pop's, I don't get why anyone would care about 'soft edges' or is it just me who actually enjoys editing audio?

I still enjoy editing audio. I don't enjoy hearing a pop at a punch in, however. This feature just drops in an automatic cross fade at every punch in... one less thing to worry about. I spend less time doing the boring rudiments of editing & more time crafting music.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

ok from my reading DC offset has nothing to do with pops in between takes. I feel a bit like a chump.

ok so let me get this straight when it comes to soft edges.

with soft edges if I say, have a guitar take, cut out a few seconds in the middle of it, and butt up together the first and last parts, I will not get a pop when the play passes through the point they are butted up against each other at? is that correct?

This pretty much explains it:
Soft Edge tutorial

It's a very powerful feature that can be used in a number of ways. Automatic smoothing of punch ins, butting different regions together, basic fade ins & outs.
It gets really cool when you start editing tom tracks or multiple guitar parts with lots of rests. You can edit as many as you want simultaneously, and set matching soft edges for your selected tracks with one keystroke. I used to spend hours (and I do mean, HOURS) editing tom tracks in Sonar, now a song takes roughly 2 minutes to do.
For example: Say you have 3 toms. Set up a global gate for all three tracks. Say, 3 ms attack, 1 second release. Hit the "reverse" switch. Then, select "remove silence from track." Saw will strip out all the crap in between tom hits.... and since you used a reverse gate, the edit point will be 3 ms BEFORE the tom strike. Finally, select your tom hits with the global selector, and activate "set soft edge." 2 ms start, 500 ms end. Done. No clicks, no pops & you've got clean tom tracks with a cool 1/2 second fade out on each hit. That, my friends, is powerful.

-0z-

 

[unsilpauly]

This pretty much explains it:
Soft Edge tutorial

It's a very powerful feature that can be used in a number of ways. Automatic smoothing of punch ins, butting different regions together, basic fade ins & outs.
It gets really cool when you start editing tom tracks or multiple guitar parts with lots of rests. You can edit as many as you want simultaneously, and set matching soft edges for your selected tracks with one keystroke. I used to spend hours (and I do mean, HOURS) editing tom tracks in Sonar, now a song takes roughly 2 minutes to do.
For example: Say you have 3 toms. Set up a global gate for all three tracks. Say, 3 ms attack, 1 second release. Hit the "reverse" switch. Then, select "remove silence from track." Saw will strip out all the crap in between tom hits.... and since you used a reverse gate, the edit point will be 3 ms BEFORE the tom strike. Finally, select your tom hits with the global selector, and activate "set soft edge." 2 ms start, 500 ms end. Done. No clicks, no pops & you've got clean tom tracks with a cool 1/2 second fade out on each hit. That, my friends, is powerful.

-0z-

dp sounds quicker to me. all you have to do is strip silence and select all the tom tracks and just pull back the fade with the mouse. no gate. you can adjust the attack and release times and the threshold. so it works like a gate but it seems like less steps to do the same thing with dp. you can do the same thing with protools as well i believe.

 

[Carrier Flux]

oz: I noticed you posting on the sawstudio forum asking about using DKFHs with sawstudio. I'm really interested in this program now but I just have to know how is using drum sample libraries in saw, and how is the midi programing? is there a piano roll such as sonar's? I've gotten used to programing all my drums in the piano roll. have you been writing drums and using DKFHs in SS? thanks!

 

[Glenn Fricker]

Yes, I'm using DFHS with SS. The 2nd to last version... the very latest patch screwed the pooch for SS, and Toontrack hasn't been much help in that regard.


Saw is mainly an Audio production program... Midi is an add on, called "Midi Workshop." It's pretty cool, too. I've used it a bit, and I like it. You might want to ask on the SAW forum about it, you'll get guys answering with much more experience on it than me.
However, if you're happy with your current midi program, that should work alongside SAW just fine.
-0z-

 

[Glenn Fricker]

dp sounds quicker to me. all you have to do is strip silence and select all the tom tracks and just pull back the fade with the mouse. no gate. you can adjust the attack and release times and the threshold. so it works like a gate but it seems like less steps to do the same thing with dp. you can do the same thing with protools as well i believe.

Yeah, but you're forgetting the assember code speed advantage.