Double Kickdrum recording.

[Seizure.]

I'm gonna record the full length of my band DrDoom, and this time around i don't wanna use sample replacement to begin with, which was the situation in the previous recordings, i would throw a Sm58 in every kickdrum and replace them the moment they were recorded

Now i want to record a nice natural kit (i have the material and experience/knowledge now..), but i keep seeing the double kickdrums as an obstacle.
I can never ever make them sound exactly the same, let alone record them the same.
Even a pro drummer like derek roddy resorts to sample replacement because he couldn't make the 2 kicks sound the same.

It would be a waste to position my mics and subkicks and then in the end to the same i did on the previous 2 recordings.

Am i not putting in enough effort? can it be done?
Or are my doubts legit and should i convince him to recording with one kickdrum?

Any input welcome!!

JB!

 

[R-Stuur]

I'm gonna record the full length of my band DrDoom

I want it so bad, sidenote: estimated time of release =?

 

[Seizure.]

Its probably out somewhere in september/oktober Glad you like it!

 

[ahjteam]

I can never ever make them sound exactly the same, let alone record them the same.

Why would they have to sound exactly the same? If you want them to sound exactly alike, then just use samples from the kit.

 

[Zack Uidl]

If you need/want them the same:
-Sample on of the kicks and replace those sounds on the other
-Use other samples that you have on both

I personally like the sound of two slightly different kicks. I still try to get them as close as possible, but like the variety with two kicks

 

[Manicompression]

Yeah, I would say if its doom / dirge / drone / more organic sounding material in the first place, why not accept the quirks, thats the charm

 

[Manicompression]

I listened to the doom stuff, very cool, I dont think it matters if you sample them or keep them original, its so dense and moving so quick no listener in the right mind is going to notice or care about the variance should you choose to go that route.

 

[Tommy Gun]

I prefer Natural/Organic kick drums as well. But, yeah, it's hard to get it right. If the drummer is playing on 2 kicks, I say get your mics and placement good, and track it. Then, when you move on to editing, just replace the double-kick work with a sample from the recording. That way, all the single kick stuff is purely organic, and the double-kick stuff is like 75% organic (with a little help). The other option is to have the drummer play on one kick, with a double pedal.

 

[Seizure.]

Jup, your right, thats what i was allready thinking about aswell, just augmenting the 2 with the best sounding sample to make it more consistent and yet still keeping the normal kick + some dynamics.
But the double pedal on 1 kickdrum would be ideal though

 

[~BURNY~]

Jup, your right, thats what i was allready thinking about aswell, just augmenting the 2 with the best sounding sample to make it more consistent and yet still keeping the normal kick + some dynamics.

Sounds like a good compromise.

 

[chaosmonger]

We are in the same boat, bro. My band (Poema Arcanvs) is about to start recording our 4th album, and this time I'm taking care of the production duties. We already did the demos:

http://www.soundclick.com/poemaarcanus

Drums are 100% natural, bass drum was played with a double pedal, but still, being the drumhead kinda old, the left beater sounded notoriously brighter than the right one (actually it was backwards, being my drummer left-handed ... but to avoid confusion...) ... moreover, my drummer decided to use felt (sp?) beaters instead of plastic ones (WTF was I thinking about???), so I had to fight a lot to get some bright attack out of them and to get the 2 beaters even. He still feels the BD doesn't have enough attack and clarity on the demo recordings .... duh.

Now he is stuck with the idea of recording the "real" album with 2 bassdrums and I'm in panic ... he says something like: "well, being them in 2 different tracks you can compensate any difference, plus I'm not going for two 100% identical sounds" ... that's what he says, but when mixing he always wants to have the bassdrum sounding "perfect", and any inconsistence between the 2 BD's will result, I think, in some "not so perfect" hits that he will not be happy with (fuckin drummers) ... of course this time we will use new drumheads and all, but I'm still afraid as I have no experience recording 2 BD's ... At least I already convinced him of using plastic beaters, but still cannot convince him to use his double pedal.

Due to the band's style we're not going for a so-clinically-pefect drumsound, but for a more organic one, so replacing is not something I would be sooo happy to do (though it seems we're heading towards there, even more with the 2 BDs situation).

Bottom line: I see it like this: 2 Bass drums were a badly-forced invention due to the snare being between the drummer's legs, making it impossible to hit 1 BD with both legs. Thank god now we have double pedals (problem solved), however drummers still want to use 2 bassdrums, just to compensate for something I don't want to go deeper into, justifying it through "the feel" and such nonsense ... just like us, guitar players like to play full stacks .... if that was the case, why don't they play with one snare per hand? one tom per hand? (they have 2 hands just like they have 2 legs, no? .........uuhh...wait, wait ........ yeah, I've heard of Def Leppard) ...

Finally, anyone who has the disgrace to rehearse with a "2 Bassdrummed" drummer, and especially, the disgrace to be closer to the left (in my case right) bass drum will know how obnoxious is to rehearse listening to the aforementioned bassdrum a lot louder .... sounds like a damn potato rain. So, what's the point??

As you may see, my post was just a big, long-assed rant (not to be taken so seriously) .... sorry to everybody ... no useful info in here, though I feel much better now , and I hope you do too, knowing you're not alone on your fears (I'm terrified)

Cheers!

 

[chaosmonger]

BTW (and sorry for hi-jacking the thread) ... how does the two bassdrum layout affect the ambient and overhead tracks compared with a one-bassdrum layout? ... obviously both bassdrums are likely to be somewhat "panned" on those tracks, (as opposed to one bass drum being centered) but, Is this relevant or something to fight against in the mix context?

thanks!

 

[beyond dead]

if you close mic the cymbals as opposed to using overheads, it would defeat the issue, because there would be minimal kick bleed in the mics

 

[Keessi]

One advantage that 2 bd's have when playing live and using triggers is that the triggering is more accurate... when playing with 1 bd, the module skips some notes on fast parts(or if I have the decay on the dm5 lower it'll double trigg every time).

.....And yes, it feels A LOT better to use 2 bd's(mainly on fast kicks) cause you don't have any fucking shafts between the pedals. Just direct action. You can also separate the pedals more = comfortable. That said, I usually play 1 BD when I'm not playing with my band Murdershock.

 

[beyond dead]

ive also heard of tuning one of the kick samples (when triggered) higher, or lower to simulate the slight difference between bass drums. ive always thought this was standard practice. but i understand how it may not be desirable for really techy stuff. i would assume that single kick drums would be more appropriate for tech death applications

 

[Tommy Gun]

IMO, the whole point of 2 kick drums is really for speed and comfort. Most drummers will tell you that they struggle constantly to make both the kicks sound as close to one another as possible.

 

[vespiz]

IMO, the whole point of 2 kick drums is really for speed and comfort. Most drummers will tell you that they struggle constantly to make both the kicks sound as close to one another as possible.

I thought the whole point of two kicks was that it looks cooler?

 

[beyond dead]

speed and comfort comes second to my back carrying all those drums into venues!!! i actually don`t like the way 2 bass drums forces me to position my kit. in my experience, a single kick with double pedal is easier to play, and sounds better. i`m only 5` 10" so i dont need extra spacing and the shaft connecting pedals has never negatively affected my playing. i`m not a slack, muscle bound ballet dancer behind the kit either. i kind of fashioned my playing and kit setup so that it is easy to track. live i also achieve a very tight studio type sound that i am always complemented on at shows. not to sound cocky, but most drummers (ive played with bands that get mentioned here often) just tighten there skins and assume they will sound good. they ask : what kind of kit is that? it sounds awesome. i just reply "its pearl export" lol. exports with evans g2`s tuned with a tension meter can sound 100 % better than masters or (input expensive drum company here) with remo skins uke: cranked as tight as possible.

 

[Tommy Gun]

And that's all well and good... I was only addressing the idea of letting 2 kicks sound slightly different on a recording. To me, that's the wrong way to go. A good tight, solid sounding mix requires the kicks to sound the same. Which is why, if you'll notice, I already posted earlier that a good bet is to record with 1 kick drum, using a double pedal. A lot drummers I know prefer to track that way, event though they might play with 2 kick drums live. Personally, it's easier for me to track/edit/mix 2 kicks, rather than one, because it gives me 2 separate tracks with more "breathing room". But, at the same time, I do a little less work in Sound Replacer when it's only 1 kick track. So, there is a give and take on that issue. My real point was that allowing the kick drums to be tuned differently is a bad idea, and not really the point of owning 2 kicks. Drummers with 2 kicks generally do so for comfort, and yes, for looks.