Drum Replacement Accuracy (files inside)

[CJWall]

Okay, it's taken me a while, but I've always noticed something strange in the timing or 'feel' of my replaced drum tracks using Drumagog. There was always something that just didn't feel right about the timing after doing a mix and comparing it to the raw tracks. It was always the same thing, very, very subtle ''jerking' of individual Kick/Snare hits. Kind of seemed take away any little pocket the drummer may of happened to be playing in. (you know how rare those moments are to begin with )

It's been driving me crazy for a while now, so I decided to put this little test up to see if others agree and maybe raise some awareness about this!

I did a test very quickly between Aptrigga and Drumagog just to show the differences. Aptrigga may lack the feature set of Drumagog, but it sounds a hell of a lot tighter IMO..

I used a short section from the "Stillrise" mixcontest files for this.. Snare sample is from SS drums and Kick is 'kikbig' from Seizure..
(MP3's are are at a samplerate of 48k BTW)

Original:http://www.box.net/public/dehet7f7c1
Aptrigga:http://www.box.net/public/d6vz6tzvs9
Drumagog w/Auto Align Enabled:http://www.box.net/public/6o286trzom
Drumagog w/Auto Align Disabled:http://www.box.net/public/9rb85fbg7b

Check these out and then throw 'em in your DAW to compare some of the individual transients and where they lay relative to one another.

The one with Auto-Align is wayyy out of wack compared to the Aptrigga and original files. It seems it varies as to where Drumagog puts the sample throughout the track. It doesn't appear to be early or late at any consistent value.

I used Nuendo 3 for this with the latest version of Drumagog, set to advanced mode with the slider all the way to the right. When I used Auto-Align, I made sure to optimize Auto-Align to the respective piece of kit (Kick/Snare).

So, any thoughts?

(BTW, I'm not trying to slam Drumagog as I love the program and have spent hours making all my samples into GOG format, but I just cannot live with the lack of tightness I'm hearing.)

 

[Machinated]

I ALWAYS turn auto-align off, it always seems a little bit out when I'm using it. Glad I'm not the only one its happening to.

 

[CJWall]

One thing I notice now looking back at the screenshot is that the waveform even appears to have changed on the auto-align version.

Is it just me seeing this?

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

Never loved Drumagog, I found AppTrigga to be much more accurate (and much cheaper).

 

[Where She Wept]

Did you offset the replaced tracks (w/drummagog) to compensate for latency? makes a huge difference.

 

[CJWall]

Well, I'm assuming Nuendo takes care of this w/PDC and I used the fixed latency version which is recommended. I don't think this will do much in my case. If you go through, the amount the Auto-Align version is off varies from early to late through this short clip.

 

[Seizure.]

I noticed the same thing yeah, drumagog has allways been a bit "weird" to me.. a sample can also sound totally different in aptrigga.. it like it does something tot sound sometimes!
Nice to see your using the kikbig btw.... that thing lends itself marvelously for downtuning, i sometimes have it tuned 68% down in drumagog hahaha..

Anyhoo, another thing about Aptrigga i haven't figured out was how i could use multilayer samples.. anyone mind helping?

 

[Splat88]

CJ, the same thing happens to me too in Cubase and Sonar when I have auto align on. The hits get shifted either before or after the original drum hit in no particular order. I thought I was going crazy initially. Now if I want to blend the original hit with the Drumagog hit (with auto-align off), I make a duplicate copy of the track and visually align the 2 of them.

 

[CJWall]

CJ, the same thing happens to me too in Cubase and Sonar when I have auto align on. The hits get shifted either before or after the original drum hit in no particular order. I thought I was going crazy initially. Now if I want to blend the original hit with the Drumagog hit (with auto-align off), I make a duplicate copy of the track and visually align the 2 of them.

Good idea.. Does the offset then stay consistent with Auto-align off?

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Never loved Drumagog, I found AppTrigga to be much more accurate (and much cheaper).

Neither works perfect, but I agree with you on AppTrigga being a little tighter. I prefer the interface on Drumagog, but I think both could be better.

This reminds me: I need to get that VST wrapper for ProTools...I think I'll do a new post.

 

[TheDude]

+1 on everyone :/

 

[Splat88]

Good idea.. Does the offset then stay consistent with Auto-align off?

Its perfect. This is the whole reason why I switched from Cubase SX3 to Sonar 6. In Cubase, when you freeze a track, you can't edit it, and the wave form displayed does not show you the new wave form with effects added. In Sonar, you can apply audio effects to a track and the wave form displayed will be updated as well. Then you're free to magnify and visually time align the two tracks perfectly, taking into account any latency introduced by a plugin.

I know you could bounce in Cubase and do the same thing but its such a pain in the ass in comparison. Bouncing or freezing a track in Cubase takes forever, while in Sonar the offline application of all plugins on a track is lightning fast.

Oh yeah, visually seeing the two files together is critical so you can see if the triggered hit and the real hit are not only time aligned but in phase as well. The change in sound is quite drastic.

 

[JeffTD]

Never loved Drumagog, I found AppTrigga to be much more accurate (and much cheaper).

And I am forever in debt for this recommendation.

I absolutely love aptrigga, and for $45, it's a damned steal!

 

[Black neon bob]

The question is though... how in the hell do you multisample with aptrigga 2?

 

[CJWall]

Its perfect. This is the whole reason why I switched from Cubase SX3 to Sonar 6. In Cubase, when you freeze a track, you can't edit it, and the wave form displayed does not show you the new wave form with effects added. In Sonar, you can apply audio effects to a track and the wave form displayed will be updated as well. Then you're free to magnify and visually time align the two tracks perfectly, taking into account any latency introduced by a plugin.

I know you could bounce in Cubase and do the same thing but its such a pain in the ass in comparison. Bouncing or freezing a track in Cubase takes forever, while in Sonar the offline application of all plugins on a track is lightning fast.

Oh yeah, visually seeing the two files together is critical so you can see if the triggered hit and the real hit are not only time aligned but in phase as well. The change in sound is quite drastic.

I may have to demo Sonar one of these days. I keep hearing good things about it. Bouncing in Cubendo has always seemed a PITA for me as well (although in reality it really isn't, it just harms my workflow)

Can't you freeze groups as well? That's what I could really use..

Thanks for the tips dude..

 

[JeffTD]

The question is though... how in the hell do you multisample with aptrigga 2?

You get 9 total samples... I leave it so the original hit comes through unaffected under a certain velocity. This lets ghost notes, ascending hits, etc... to come through well, but lets the sample in for the normal hits.

I only replace it 50% max, so you still get the velocity from the original snare. Pair that with 9 other hits, and you're good to go.

 

[Splat88]

I may have to demo Sonar one of these days. I keep hearing good things about it. Bouncing in Cubendo has always seemed a PITA for me as well (although in reality it really isn't, it just harms my workflow)

Can't you freeze groups as well? That's what I could really use..

Thanks for the tips dude..

Nope, no freezing of groups, which sucks. Another benefit of Sonar over Cubase is group routing and plugin ordering. There's no limitations there.

 

[sparkyness]

Am seriously thinking of making that switch back to Sonar (I left after v3 and the automation farce) after hearing lots of good things re: Sonar 6 (the Sound on Sound review for one). My day gig no longer requires any multimedia work and Nuendo is really starting to piss me off.

 

[RS]

You get 9 total samples... I leave it so the original hit comes through unaffected under a certain velocity. This lets ghost notes, ascending hits, etc... to come through well, but lets the sample in for the normal hits.

I only replace it 50% max, so you still get the velocity from the original snare. Pair that with 9 other hits, and you're good to go.

But it isn't possible to load more than one sample per dynamic layer, isn't it? So if I want to replace 100%, it sounds crappy. That sucks, because apart from that the software is working very, very well and it's so much cheaper than drumagog!

Ben

 

[Keessi]

Live aptrigga! I bought aptrigga today and I'm waiting for the info to arrive to my e-mail. drumagog is always off with me. the phase is shifting back and forth and it's pissing me off BIG TIME. and it was 230e. fuck. aptrigga 45e and it actually WORKS.