Drums: Mixing with all cymbals miced individually?

[GuitarMaestro]

Usually if I record drums myself I'll only have OH's and a mic for ride and hi-hat each (which I both usually dont use much at all in the mix) + room mics.

However for the project I am currently mixing all cymbals where miced seperately.
So I have all China's, Splashes, Crashes, etc. on individual tracks.

At the moment I am clueless how to use these tracks to my advantage though.

Cymbals are not very well suited to gating, but the amount of bleed/noise you get from 8+ additional cymbal mics is massive. What's the usual approach here? And should I use the OH's at all in this case?

 

[Erkan]

Interesting... not that I even have the amount of channels to do this (8 is my limit!), but it's still interesting to know.

But doing this type of thing feels like a dare devil kind of thing though... don't you have to be reeeaaaally careful with phase and bleed and... everything?

Eagerly waiting for experienced people to post their experience so we can gain some experience and become more experienced. EXPERIENCE!

 

[punkrockacademyfightsong]

I'd set up the OH's for the best sound you can get out of them and then automate the separate mics (if / when needed) to get everything in the mix as clear as possible.
I'd always check if the different signals are effecting each other phase wise too, so for each signal you mix in check it in and out of phase to see what sounds better.

 

[Trevoire520]

I'm assuming you've got stereo overheads to work with aswel as the cymbal mics? In which case I'd just bring up the close mics when you need them to help bring out the detail in the ride/china/whatever.

If you've not got overheads to work with then I think the whole process is going to be very tricky indeed!

 

[Sinister Mephisto]

I'm assuming you've got stereo overheads to work with aswel as the cymbal mics? In which case I'd just bring up the close mics when you need them to help bring out the detail in the ride/china/whatever.

If you've not got overheads to work with then I think the whole process is going to be very tricky indeed!

I agree 100%.

 

[brandy]

Why should one record 8 tracks of close miced cymbals without recording a pair of regular overheads as well?

 

[006]

Yeah...individually mic'ing each cymbal is nothing new...

But each time I have done it I also took a pair of OHs too, as brandy is saying. You just pan the individual tracks how you want from left to right and send them all to a stereo bus...pretty basic technique.

~006

 

[Executioner213]

So...what kind of ratio do you apply with the OH track along with your stereo bus?

 

[GuitarMaestro]

I have OH tracks as well and will use 'em.

In which case I'd just bring up the close mics when you need them to help bring out the detail in the ride/china/whatever.

Problem is: Because of the bleed it sounds kinda strange to fade the individual mics in...

But each time I have done it I also took a pair of OHs too, as brandy is saying. You just pan the individual tracks how you want from left to right and send them all to a stereo bus...pretty basic technique.

Yeah - but if I have all the individual mics in the mix it gets kinda messy and noisy.

What do guys like Sneap use the individual mics for?

I guess my only option is to let them sit in the mix at a very low level to add a little detail and dont get too much noise/chaos...

 

[006]

It's never the same every time when balancing all the individual tracks with the two OH mics. What I do is bus the individuals to their own stereo bus, then I have the two OH mics bussed (stereo as well, duh) and then both of those stereo busses going to yet another stereo bus so that once a blend of the two is found, the overall level can be brought up/down easily. I'm a bus whore, btw.

The balance depends on the drummer, style of music, style of production you are going for, vibe of each particular song. If you do it the way I do, you do some "global" eq'ing on the cymbal bus (like HPF around 450-600, slight boosts/cuts to kill off kick/snare/tom bleed) then if it's needed tweak individual tracks. Honestly I try not to mic everything individually every time. I try to use just two SDCs up top, then mic the ride and hi-hat with their own LDC each. With all the individual cymbals mic'ed, it's more trouble than it's worth IMO. Most cases, a pair, or even 3-4 mics spaced out over the kit will get all the OH you need anyway as long as they are placed correctly. I would have to say just try getting those main OH tracks going without using the individual ones.

Also, unless you can duck the drums out of OH tracks via sidechain, I hate gating OH tracks...always sounds weird and takes too much effort. Most of the noise can be taken care of via HPF. Cymbals usually take a lot less processing than you may think

~006

 

[GuitarMaestro]

Thanks for the detailed post. As I wrote I usually mic drums the way you do it: OH's, ride, hi-hat and that's it - for cymbals.
But this project I am mixing was recorded by expirienced folk at a good studio and they swear by micing cymbals individually. They even go so far that they dont use OH's for their in house mixes - only the individual mics. So I dont want to discard the individual mics...without giving them a try first...
I guess I'll take your advice, do my usual routine (mainly relying on the OH's) and bus the individual mics together and use them at a volume where they slightly support the OH's and make no trouble...

 

[brandy]

What I would try:

Make a rough mix with the pure Overheads first.

Listen carfully and try to find out what is missing/can be featured.

Add HiHat, Ride - maybe the China...

check in mono for phase issues which easily could be made during recording

listen again, find out what is missing.

check the still muted tracks and try to find out what they are and where that cymbals can be find in the OH (pan related)

Add one by one - use a hp at 400+ hz, you have to be carefull with those annoying resonances which can built up in such a scenario... I am talking about those "fiiiii"'s between 3 and 6 khz.. Notch them on the close mics

If you do that right - and use that bussing technique mentioned by 006 (which I use as well) to carefully build the overall image.

If the drums are recorded in a good room etc the bleed will not kill you. Bleed can even be your friend.

Don't compress the shit out of the cymbals/ohs cause that will bring up the bleed. Better only some light compression with fast attack to tame the transjents of snare & toms.

Maybe use a deesser on the cymbals bus to control the dynamic on the top end.

 

[Morgan C]

Close-mics on cymbals are often used to bring up the low-end in them (especially if you high-pass them at 400-600Hz) on rides and hats.

 

[LSD-Studio]

I'd set up the OH's for the best sound you can get out of them and then automate the separate mics (if / when needed) to get everything in the mix as clear as possible.
I'd always check if the different signals are effecting each other phase wise too, so for each signal you mix in check it in and out of phase to see what sounds better.

that's how I'd do it

 

[Erkan]

Close-mics on cymbals are often used to bring up the low-end in them (especially if you high-pass them at 400-600Hz) on rides and hats.

This is a good point. Lots of metal guys just high pass the OH at let's say 500 hz, so the beef of the cymbal is gone. If you don't high pass, you got lots of rumble rumble in the OH tracks so... it's a hard choise.

But with close micing, you could retain the beef of the cymbals, but as I have not tried anything with close micing cymbals, I don't know how it would sound... it would suck if it sounded separated you know. They need to be smack tight locked together with the OH tracks And since the OH tracks have a longer distance from the sound source, the close mics don't... it might sound weird. I dunno wth I'm talking about btw!