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Thank you...

Well it's a bit offopic but it's not so sure what are we turks. Etnically Turks are a turanic nation, from east to west, some such major nationalities are Japans, Koreans, Mongolians, Turks, Hungarians, Estonians and Finns. Today, in miscelous places in Asia (in China, Russia, Ukraine and Mongolia) you can see millions Turkic people. If you wonder some examples about it: Turkistan in China, Tataristan, Bashkir, Cuvash Republic in Russia where is the meeting of finnic-turkic cultures, christian Gagausians in Ukraine and Moldova, some Turkic states Kyrgysyztan, Uzbekistan, Kazakistan where many people still keep their Shaman rituels, and Khazars who has accepted Judaism.

Only, in last 1000 years, we are inside of Anatolia, where is next/to or inside of middle east and in last 500 years, we are inside of Europe.

Especially Turks in Turkey are the heritages of Ottomans, which was an empiredom that was claiming themselves as the former of Byztantium and Roman Empires and which was more inside of ancient greek culture then rest of Europeans was forgotten during medival age. During medival age, Europeans were more "middle eastern" which was into strict christian religion which is a middle eastern religion. Enlightment age in Europe was accoured after Turks entered Constaninapolis.

Well, basicly, Turks are an Asian nation but we are also highly inside of Middle East and European cultures.
 
HeathenPride said:
Thank you...

Well it's a bit offopic but it's not so sure what are we turks. Etnically Turks are a turanic nation, from east to west, some such major nationalities are Japans, Koreans, Mongolians, Turks, Hungarians, Estonians and Finns. Today, in miscelous places in Asia (in China, Russia, Ukraine and Mongolia) you can see millions Turkic people. If you wonder some examples about it: Turkistan in China, Tataristan, Bashkir, Cuvash Republic in Russia where is the meeting of finnic-turkic cultures, christian Gagausians in Ukraine and Moldova, some Turkic states Kyrgysyztan, Uzbekistan, Kazakistan where many people still keep their Shaman rituels, and Khazars who has accepted Judaism.

Only, in last 1000 years, we are inside of Anatolia, where is next/to or inside of middle east and in last 500 years, we are inside of Europe.

Especially Turks in Turkey are the heritages of Ottomans, which was an empiredom that was claiming themselves as the former of Byztantium and Roman Empires and which was more inside of ancient greek culture then rest of Europeans was forgotten during medival age. During medival age, Europeans were more "middle eastern" which was into strict christian religion which is a middle eastern religion. Enlightment age in Europe was accoured after Turks entered Constaninapolis.

Well, basicly, Turks are an Asian nation but we are also highly inside of Middle East and European cultures.
Click to expand...


Wow, dude you really know your history :grin:
 
+ Youäve got like slavic and celtic influences too, and greek perhaps? especially in istanbul and that area. The slavs where like young serbian boys kidnapped to fight other moslems, who after almost lifelong service were made free and allowed to become normal citizens - hence Serbian hate for muslims. The celtic influence I here alot about but I don't know anything about how they came to turkey. Someone said Viking thralls but I'm not sure about that...
 
I think you are talking about "Devrisme's", the people who converted into Islam by the Ottomans. Well only Albanians, Bosnians (slavs), Greeks (Anatolian greeks), Bulgars and Armenians were accepting as such. And these people was sending by the families' permissions who would like their children to live a better life. Because most of them had good place in palace. I believe that it was a bullshit but you should remember that it was during ottomans who used to live in medival.

And vikings in Anatolia... They have found a stone in Mesudiye area of the city Ordu in Turkey and on the stone, there is a figure of a vessel. Historians say that it is possible that that vessel was viking but that's not sure. Ordu is a city next to black sea/northern anatolia. They say that during XI. and XII. centuries, it's possible that some vikings has been in Black Sea and Caspian Sea regions.

We have meet with vikings in another was too: Tarkan versus vikings :D

It's just a movie taken in 70s years in the name of the comics tarkan series. The movie is about the barbarian Tarkan who goes to viking land to revenge from vikings, who killed his wolf. "spilling viking blood will not stop, until i took the revenge of my wolf" :P

http://www.cinemastrikesback.com/?p=768 :)
 
well, Constantinople wasnt conquered by the Ottoman empire yet at the time of the vikings. Constantinople fell in the mid 1400s i believe. but i believe the vikings did have dealings in constantinople.. if my memory servs me correctly, the king of sweden gave as a gift 1000 vikings to the byznatine empire for some special occasion. these vikings were the best payed soldiers of the army cause they had a high reputation of being ferocious and good at warfare. i forgot where i read about that, i might have seen that on vikingblood.net or another site of that sort.
also the vikings had wars against the greeks, a famous naval battle is one the vikings lost cause the greeks had some kind of technological superiority that actually managed to push away the dragonships.. some kind ancient molotov coctail that burnt the viking ships down :p
 
well about 1000 years ago, a group of vikings get to constaninapolis (miklagard, istanbul) for commerce and they even has put a text in hagia-sophia like "Halfdan was here!".

After some time, the Norwegian king Harald Hardrade sends 500 viking warriors to Byzantium and they were guarding constaninapolis until Turks have conquered there in 1453.

So right, vikings were in Istanbul earlier than we Turks...
 
Celtik Militia said:
well, Constantinople wasnt conquered by the Ottoman empire yet at the time of the vikings. Constantinople fell in the mid 1400s i believe. but i believe the vikings did have dealings in constantinople.. if my memory servs me correctly, the king of sweden gave as a gift 1000 vikings to the byznatine empire for some special occasion. these vikings were the best payed soldiers of the army cause they had a high reputation of being ferocious and good at warfare. i forgot where i read about that, i might have seen that on vikingblood.net or another site of that sort.
also the vikings had wars against the greeks, a famous naval battle is one the vikings lost cause the greeks had some kind of technological superiority that actually managed to push away the dragonships.. some kind ancient molotov coctail that burnt the viking ships down :p
Click to expand...

Ready? Here comes the diatribe:

Norsemen served in the Byzantine army since the mid 800's. They also attacked Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire continuously. The fact of the matter is that there was no such thing as "a" king of Sweden until many centuries later (but rather, there were many kings in the territory that later became Sweden at that time), but a Rus ruler sent a gift of 5000 Norsemen to the Byzantine emperor. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
The Varangian Guards, whose duty, among others, was to defend the emperor as his lifeguard, consisted largely of Norse fighters. As a result, the Varangians were some of the best-paid of the empire's troops, which meant that Norsemen from all over Scandianvia and Russia could join up and return home wealthy. One of the more famous troops to do so, was Harald Hårdråde, who eventually became king of Norway and died at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. I believe the Varangian Guard lived on until something like 1204, when the crusades began, but don't quote me on the date.

As for the Turks: Many modern archaeologists believe that the original home of the first Indo-Europeans came from Anatolia, and that it was from there that the Indo-European language was spread all over Europe along with this new little invention known as agriculture. That was about 9000 years ago, and the remains from such sites as Catal Huyuk show how really truly old, and really very pivotal the area has been in the development of western civilization.

Now for something totally O/T, so skip if you're bored:
The really cool issue is, if the Indo-Europeans arrived then, what language did the people of Europe speak before then?
How 'bout that Celtik? Basque, maybe? Their language is not related to any other, and neither are their DNA markers...


 
ok thanks for the precisions, yeah thats what i was thinking of :)

and how did Harald Hårdråde die at Hastings if he was a king of Norway? i thought the norwegians attacked north of england and got pushed away so then the Normands (who were "frenchisized") took the opportunity to attack south and they beat the fucking brits (:p) in Hastings. i didnt know there was any other army in Hastings than the normand and the english ones.

about the "what were the people of europe before the indo-europeans".. basque could be an answer, cause i recently saw a documentary on the basques in france and they were saying they were the first europeans, before the celts. the thing i know for sure and that you certainly know too, is that the first religions in europe were the wiccan (sp) religions. but i'm not sure basques were ever wiccan. :s so before the basques in europe there might have been other people who were submerged and forgotten. but yeah, the basque languages were in europe before the indo european ones.

anyway Tyra, if i may ask you a personal question. I am 19 in university.. and i am in a phase in my life where i don't know what i want to do later. for now i'm studying sciences (physics and maths) and i find it completely boring to an extent that i never study and hardly work, hence i fuck up my exams. so i was thinking that i should to something that interrests me. among the things that interrest me are what we just talked about here; history and anthropology are pass times of mine, and i like reading and learning about those when i got the time. i believe your job combines these subjects. what is your job exactly? what does it consist in? is it fairly well payed or at least worth it for you? and how did you get that title? what was your universitary path? if you don't mind me asking, please answer these questions, cause i really don't know what to do, i've already lost 2 years after graduation for studying subjects i failed cause they didnt interrest me. :( thanks :)
 
To Celtik, I agree with you man. If I could change things, I would have taken archeology, as a matter of fact I looked into University of South Florida for Latin american & Caribbean studies with anthropology, but right now I don't have the time to dedicate hours to such degree. Science, math, figures,..and looking at schematic or blueprints bore me to death. I want something that takes me places, let me see people and cultures instead of being stuck in some meaningless cubical. I sure as hell do not fit in the concrete jungle and do not plan on spending the rest of my days here.
 
btw, the first known indo-european speaking civilization in the world is hitties as i know, who lived around the city Ankara of central anatolia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

they were one of the strongest political alliance in their age, and they even made several wars against egyptions but they couldn't not manage to defeat each others so they made the first peace treatment (kadesh) of the world etc.
 
The first decoded hittitian sentence (by Hrozny in 1915)
ninda an ezzateni watarra ekutteni (eat the bread and drink the water)

ninda: the word for bread, same like in ancient sumer language which was an uralic-altaic language like turkish. also hitties was using sumer letters.

ezzat: "to eat" in english or "essen" in german

watarra: "water" in english and "wasser" in german

eku: it means "to drink" in hittit language but the similar word "aqua" in latin means "water"
 
Hetahen Pride: If you're interested in the other side, Google "Gimbutas, kurgan hypothesis". The Hittite hypothesis is not necessarily the most popular out there in regards to the Indo-Europeans. THAT IS NOT MY PERSONAL OPINION, JUST AN FYI!

Celtik: For now, because I've just switched from one carreer to another, I'm still in the middle of doing school (researchpaper on - guess what? The spread of the Indo-European language! Not my choice of topic, but still OK), working my old job and going on a dig in May. Then my job, roughly, will be to sit in a hole in the ground and dig up a stoneage settlement and gravesite.
To become an archaeologist, one must go to university, generally for a minimum of three years. The pay depends on how specialized one is (there are various fields within the one field, such as archaeogenetics, laboratory archaeology, dig crew, archaeoosteology, ethnoarchaeology and so on), as does the amount of work available. You will find that there is more work in some areas of the world than in others, so being able to travel can be an asset. For "shovelbums" (gruntwork), the pay is very low in Europe. It is, however what you make of it. You don't have to stay a shovelbum forever, but can specialize, teach, write and so on.
Training within the field of anthropology opens up a whole lot more doors, I would think, than a specialized job like archaeology. The two in combination are a killer. Etnography might be something that you'd be interested in looking into, too. Etnoarchaeology is really intense and it never fails to blow my mind. It overlaps quite a bit with anthropology. Physical anthro overlaps a lot with archeoosteology, too. I just think that anthro is a really good foundation, or a good place to start until you know for sure what you really want to do. Sometimes you need to really get into something before it becomes clear what really turns your crank, and sometimes there are professions in a field that you'd like that you never knew existed.
You could also become a historical archaeologist. Plain old archeo, like I do, deals with the time before the end of European ironage (such as stone age, neanderthals, vikings, Celts and Gengis Kahn etc.). Historical archaeo is anything after that (crusades, WWI, Napoleon etc.).
Whether or not it's worth it all depends upon what's more important - immediate money or immediate happiness. I'm broke on a continuous basis, because I've had a not very highpaying career up until now, but it's one that's been very gratifying. Now I'm back to my first love, archaeo, and it probably will bring me more money in the long run. For now, it's for happiness.
As for you, my vote is to look into general anthropology, then you can specialize onec it becomes clear what you like. Good enough answer for you?
 
GEtting back to indo-europeans and european aboriginals:

What about the finns? IT is said that their language (the finno-ugric linguistic tribe) is not indo-european (is it related to the sami languages? Because for a layman like me they sound similair if I'm not mistaken.) How about the people? The blonde finns look not seldomly like northern indo-europeans (Karl's ätt), wheras the dark ones look more like the lapps. ARe the finns a mixture of these people? CLarification oin the subject would be highly appreciated.
 
Tyra; yeah thanks a lot, thats a good enough answer for me :) just one last thing: what did you study do get to archeology? you had to study basic history in the first year right? and took archeology or anthropology as an option right? cause i know some history universities in france do that.
 
Pagan: That thing with the Finns is a real fucking hornetsnest to get into. Many different theories, and many different ethnic backgrounds mixed into one area. I can't quite remember how or why, but the consensus seems to be that the Finns came from the east originally (rather than from the south). The Sami have different genetic markers to the rest of the population, but I can't remember how the languages are related. I'll have to look it up - won't take me too long, as it is part of what I am supposed to know or this researchpaper.

Celtik: The course is called archaeology in and of itself. Three years uni is a minimum required to get a job, most people take more courses. History is not required. The curriculum covers human evolution from the first humans up untl the end of the ironage. Anything after that is "history" as a subject, or historical archaeology. That is because archeaology is so speciffically interested in that era, prehistory, and one has to be really very familiar with all the different ceramic styles and tools and such to do the job, and so would have to go to uni forever if you were to cover all of history as intensely as we study prehistory. History also implies that there is a written record. In other words, what's history in one part of the world is prehistory in another, so you have to focus on your favourite area, too. There are still populations in the world that live in the stoneage, for example. Our schoolsystem doesn't give you electives in this course, but some countries do. Then you can do the example that you mentioned above. It's quite common here to do three years of archaeo, and then take a year of osteology, for example, but you still have to do the three years of basc training to be able to get a basic gruntjob in the field. That's why I suggested starting with the anthro, because then you leave your options open, as it's a doorway to many more things and areas of expertise. I started this course while I was still in Sweden 20 years ago, and I had 17 or so years to decide what I wanted to do, so I knew for sure this is what I wanted to do (when my workpermit came through for Canada, I left Sweden and had to leave school behind in the process - I was supposed to be here for only one year, but ended up staying, and working with kids was the only way they'd let me stay. Then I had my own kids, and wanted to care for them, but now they're old enough that I can go back to my original plan!). When I was 18 or so, I would have not known for sure what my "true love" was, and would have considered anthropology, but I have experience in my own skin now, and know better by now! Gawd I sound ancient! That's probably because I just had a birthday and really AM ancient...LOL.
 
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