EQ Guitars Help-(I have done my research)

[deffpony]

Hey guys. Im sure there are a few of you rolling your eyes at the thought of another noob "how do i get a guitar tone" thread. But I assure you that I have done my research. I have been coming to these forums for a while and i rarely post anything because i try and just read what others have written.

So after trying for the last couple of years to get some skill at mixing metal music I am failing miserably. Specifically with the guitars. No matter what approach I take it feels like I always revert to scooping the mids which is the cheap way out. I dont want that cheap sound. Id really like the presence of a Sneap/Adam-D production. Here are some things that I usually do that seem to help.

-I Never mix longer than 15 minutes at a time. I will usually take a break and reset my ears by playing Pandora for a few songs. This helps keep me from getting lost in what I might think sounds great but actually doesnt.

-I use variable volumes. Usually louder volumes when Im trying to dial in low end and lower volumes when im trying to clean the higher frequencies.

-I will sometimes cover a portion of a song that has a mix I like. I try not to focus too much on sounding exactly the same as the mix but trying to find the major differences in my mix and their mix.

-I almost always use subtractive EQ. Very rarely will i boost a freq, but if i do its maybe about 1/2 decibles.

Now heres where I need help...

When I hear my guitar tracks I can tell whats wrong but I can never seem to find it in the frequencies. If its a harsh sound I will usually boost by about 6 db with a narrow q and hunt for the suspect freqs. But if its just a general sound like the mids/lowmids I feel so lost. I will cut a certain region but obviously if you cut some mids you will have to cut some lows too. But i get into this crazy tetter totter where nothing works.

I guess what Im saying is I can never really pinpoint where the eq needs to be applied. So do you guys have any tips on how to find those troublesome eq spots. Is there a technique that you guys use when approaching the eq on guitars.

This thread helped me alot but im still not getting there:
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...es-high-gain-guitars-case-point-tutorial.html

 

[JakeAC5253]

Heavy distorted rhythm guitars rarely sound "right" once you start curving them after recording. What I and a lot of guys these days try to do is use the gear itself to perform the tone shaping and once its recorded just let it be.

 

[deffpony]

Thats kinda shocking to hear. I happen to use amp sims because I dont have the budget for real equiptment. But I know for a fact Sturgis(who also uses sims) has used very drastic eqs.

 

[JakeAC5253]

Thats kinda shocking to hear. I happen to use amp sims because I dont have the budget for real equiptment. But I know for a fact Sturgis(who also uses sims) has used very drastic eqs.

Amp sims are a different story, as there isn't the same kind of signal characteristics going on as a tube power amp > transformer > speaker reactive load > dynamic mic signal chain. When I use amp sims, I also tend to EQ pretty heavily. I thought this thread was about tube amp recording? Well, on topic, Amp sims never sound "right" to me no matter what I do. I wouldn't get too stressed out about it, they're just sims after all. Take them for what they're worth.

 

[ttrentt]

You don't reveal your process? What gear, amp sim, impulses etc are you using?

Check Clark Kent's thread about match EQ. You can get great sim tones very quickly.

T

 

[deffpony]

I have used the amp sim match ir trick and it sounds ok but it doesnt really capture good metal tones if u ask me. Not enough dynamics. As far as my chain, I didnt think it mattered. My question is specifically eq'ing the guitars and your process. I assumed that almost everyone eq's their guitars no matter their setup.

 

[CubanDude]

Depends on what you're comparing to. IMO you'll never get a tone from your POD that's even close to a real good tone from a real amp. maybe tell us how your chain looks like, what amp sim you're using, what impulses, what guitar, what DI box (if any?!), interface..

 

[ttrentt]

I have used the amp sim match ir trick and it sounds ok but it doesnt really capture good metal tones if u ask me. Not enough dynamics. As far as my chain, I didnt think it mattered. My question is specifically eq'ing the guitars and your process. I assumed that almost everyone eq's their guitars no matter their setup.

There is no such thing as "hero" settings. Every mix is different. Every amp, tube, speaker, guitar, wood, pick, cable, fingers, etc. I agree with the higher up statement, make the source the best you can first -- EQ comes later. There are worlds of sims and IRs. The possibilities are infinite.

 

[deffpony]

ok I think you guys arent understanding my question.

I more than understand how important it is to have a high quality source sound. Get the source to sound as good as possible before recording and you shouldnt have to do much with it in the mix. I have spent alot of time getting my amp settings at a place that sounds good before its in the mix. Now im trying to get it in the mix.

With that being said, my issue is in techniques behind eq'ing guitars in the mix. I understand that you wont get amp sims to sound like real gear but thats not what Im worried about.
I have issues finding what kind of frequency changes need to be made eq wise. I just wanted to know what your techniques are for making the right changes eq wise and to prevent chasing your tail.

Thanks

 

[fsgdjv]

I think the problem is that the frequency changes that need to be made are completely depending on how the sound of the guitars are. Boost where there's too little, cut where there's too much. There's no simple answer, listen and EQ. There is not a magical frequency that needs to be boosted everywhere. Maybe there's a magical frequency that always "needs" to be cut (300 Hz) but then again I highly doubt that aswell. (I like a little bit of 300 Hz even..)

Like always, use your ears, they are the only things that can tell you where you need to boost or cut.

edit: typo

 

[Redoubt9000]

More often the only thing I need to do is dip into the presence for harsh overtones and a bit into the mids for clarity (and hi/low pass where needed, from time to time I will also seek out any troublesome freqs with a narrow cut, but with moderation, otherwise it just kills the sound for me).

I think you need to pay more attention to how your impulses sound and affect your tone (derp, it is just as much the tone...) more so than what you are eq'ing after the fact. Forget tricks, coming from a minimalist approach I've seen more progress when I began to realize more and more that eq serves me much better when I approach it as being a tool to shape the guitars in context to other elements of the mix. And since it's so easy for you to change your starting tone from the get go, you shouldn't have to resort to an eq plugin right away since you can just as easily go for a different impulse instead (and with better results imo). I'd also suggest paying attention to any room modes, if simulated in your software, and taking a look at the more moderate amp settings that you can get away with.

You mentioned chasing your tail, personally I think you'll end up doing so if you resort to an eq in an attempt to fix something that could just as easily be solved with a different impulse/amp setting. Impulses are more or less an eq anyways. If you can train your ear to identify the differences between impulses, it will be just as likely that you'll find yourself identifying where and why you would use any additional eq. Use a spectrum analyzer to push this along.

 

[deffpony]

I understand there arent any magic rules for eq. But i just dont think my ears understand what is wrong with a mix. I can hear that the guitars dont sound right but i cant distinguish between a change in the 300hz-2khz region. I agree about being a minimalist. But changes on the amp head or impulse can only do so much. Besides a hpf/lpf you cant do to much other than find a nice cab model as far as impulses go. And the amp knobs can be helpful but the precision just isnt there. If you have a slight boom in your low freqs dialing the low knob in the amp head will not only affect the bad frequency but the good ones.

All the things you guys are saying I understand and agree with. But im simply asking how you go about eq'ing. Is it as simple to you guys as hearing a mix and saying "yup a 4db cut at 275 hz will make that sound much better" I doubt it. So how do you narrow down the eq u apply.

Hasnt anyone ever had a guitar tone that sounds good but just has some kind of clashing in the mix. And you have to find the frequencies where it is clashing to make a reduction. I feel like I can never find the right freqs to cut/boost

 

[JakeAC5253]

Is it as simple to you guys as hearing a mix and saying "yup a 4db cut at 275 hz will make that sound much better" I doubt it.

Well I do.

Only thing I've got more of than you is practice and experience. Why don't you download some of the DI packs hosted on this forum and see if you can get the guitars to work in the professional mixes? It's good practice, and I'd be lying if I said they didn't help me.

 

[deffpony]

You know i have tried that and it did help me at first. Maybe I should give it more time and try doing some more of those di's. Thanks for your help and patience guys

 

[Redoubt9000]

You're throwing yourself into a very bitter loop if you ask me, if you continue to think from the get go that one needs to instantly identify a specific frequency band of 3657hz as being a culprit. For me, if there's a whoosh or whistle you don't like from the guitars for example, then it's a matter of training your ear to hear it, zero in on it, and note the contrast of the sound before and after the cut whilst playing back the entire mix. If you couldn't hear it to begin with alongside everything else going on, then maybe think about whether there was any point to cutting it out (You just detract from the life of the sound imo). If it's a compounding issue as a result of multiple tracking of guitars all with the same symptoms, resulting in stacking that annoying frequency, then sure - go for it, so long as you know if it's gonna benefit you to remedy it in the first place.

Jake hit it on the head Just a matter of time, and a bit less grind too tho

Back to my earlier point, I use to be very anal when it came to keeping a very neat eq. I would round off frequencies, enter whole numbers, specify exact eq frequencies - for no apparent reason other than the fact it was just some tic I had. Then one day I just decided to not pay attention to what and where I placed an edit in the eq, I just went for it and twisted the knobs in front of me and didn't even pay attention to the values I was dialing up. At the end of that session I felt as if I had never made a better sounding compilation to date. A few days later I realized it wasn't necessarily better sounding, as it was more enjoyable to make. It became less work and more like play to just go with it and not torture myself by entertaining some odd obsessive tic of mine. I believe I've experienced even better sessions since then, and an improvement in my work as a result.

 

[deffpony]

You're throwing yourself into a very bitter loop if you ask me, if you continue to think from the get go that one needs to instantly identify a specific frequency band of 3657hz as being a culprit. For me, if there's a whoosh or whistle you don't like from the guitars for example, then it's a matter of training your ear to hear it, zero in on it, and note the contrast of the sound before and after the cut whilst playing back the entire mix. If you couldn't hear it to begin with alongside everything else going on, then maybe think about whether there was any point to cutting it out (You just detract from the life of the sound imo). If it's a compounding issue as a result of multiple tracking of guitars all with the same symptoms, resulting in stacking that annoying frequency, then sure - go for it, so long as you know if it's gonna benefit you to remedy it in the first place.

Jake hit it on the head Just a matter of time, and a bit less grind too tho

Back to my earlier point, I use to be very anal when it came to keeping a very neat eq. I would round off frequencies, enter whole numbers, specify exact eq frequencies - for no apparent reason other than the fact it was just some tic I had. Then one day I just decided to not pay attention to what and where I placed an edit in the eq, I just went for it and twisted the knobs in front of me and didn't even pay attention to the values I was dialing up. At the end of that session I felt as if I had never made a better sounding compilation to date. A few days later I realized it wasn't necessarily better sounding, as it was more enjoyable to make. It became less work and more like play to just go with it and not torture myself by entertaining some odd obsessive tic of mine. I believe I've experienced even better sessions since then, and an improvement in my work as a result.

Thanks mate I can learn alot from that

 

[Leon--]

Mic the cab with an sm57 or a good condenser mic.I personally don't like amp sims at all.Nothing like the real thing.

 

[colonel kurtz]

But changes on the amp head or impulse can only do so much[

false!

different impulses will yield VASTLY different tones, even when all other factors remain constant. even impulses of the same cab and mic can sound completely different due to mic positioning alone. don't underestimate the value of spending some time finding the right IR, and you'll save yourself a lot of headaches in EQing and the like later on.

 

[Headof75]

Deffpony - I'm not responding to any particular post here, but kind of overall to everything you've said. I'm in a similar place to you, learning how to mix heavy music pretty much by myself and from what I read on here, and, like you, I've experienced enormous frustration with my guitar tones.
Unfortunately what I've found is entirely consistent with what everybody has said already, and can be covered by the neat phrase 'shit in, shit out'.

Basically to a greater or lesser degree all the amp sims I've tried have an inherently flawed tone, the worst one imo being Pod Farm (the one Sturgis used!). If you have an inherently flawed tone to start with you are bound to have to do more radical eqing on your tone. It is not true to say that you should always eq guitars subtractively, but usually if you're having to boost that implies that something was lacking from your initial tone, so you would be better served rerecording the amp/ adjusting the sim to make up for the deficiency rather than trying to eq.

Nowadays I have developed a rule of thumb for new purchases and work flow. If I can't get what I want out of a piece of gear in one hour then I don't want it. I have neither the time nor the patience nor sit and tweak things infinitesimally in order to achieve the one good tone it is capable of, and, for me, when you listen to the Sturgis Pod tone he was only making the best of what he had at the time, not achieving a great tone in itself.

Due to limitations in my location and facilities I can't have a traditional amp, cab and mic setup, so I've had to find a way around it. My current setup is an Engl E530 direct into my PC and I use Nebula Pro and the Skaldir Cab collection for my speaker emulations. After two to three years of dicking about I can absolutely say that this combination blows all the amp sim/impulse combinations I tried out of the water tone-wise, and if you were going to make one purchase to improve your sound I'd recommend Nebula and those cabs - you can pretty much just hp and lp them and off you go! Depending on what style of music you are trying to make the best amp sim I found was the Nick Crow 8505 fwiw.

Anyway, it sounds like you are at least willing to persist which is cool and that your ears are working so just stick with it and I'm sure you will achieve what you're after.

 

[nezvers]

I am not pro, but found that if you have some issues in guitar tone and cant find... listen with full mix and sweep with +/- 3 or 4 db wider or narrow (what works better) and find spot when issue disapear. If that don't work... don't push yourself too hard.