Flamenco Metal

[soundave]

what flamenco stuff have you been listening to dave? im really into the fusion/nuevamenco sort of stuff with plenty of synth drums etc. jesse cook, ottmar liebert etc.

I'm a total flamenco n00b. So far: Pepe Romero, Rodrigo y Gabriela, Chago Rodrigo. So far, I really love the traditional stuff. That's kind of where I want to start.

 

[biggsy]

yeah fair enough. ive been listening for a bit but im still stuck on the well knowns. i find it pretty hard to find the more obscure stuff on the internet. i managed to find a carlos montoya compilation but ive lost the link as much as i like the trad stuff, the fusion stuff is really fun and laidback music. i listen to it constantly just keeping myself happy.

 

[soundave]

A lot of the Montoya stuff I've found sounds, recording quality-wise, pretty rough. Scratchy as hell, narrow frequency range. Of course. Like listening to Django stuff, it would be unreasonable to expect anything else. I'll eventually get that stuff, I'm sure. But that'll be when I'm in sort of a "music historian" mode, I think. Kind of like when I set up my victrola. It's like a time machine. For now, I'm looking for entertainment.

I do think I'll give Ottmar Liebert a shot. I sampled some of his stuff yesterday, and it sounds really nice. I totally agree with you, Biggsy; this music just makes me feel really good!

I'm hoping to get some instructional stuff for xmas this year and teach myself to play. Everywhere seems to recommend some classical experience, which I have. But, boy, the right hand technique is just INSANE! I'm attempting to learn the full (or Ramon Montoya) rasgueado, and I can do it at a moderate speed. Sure sounds flamenco, even though I'm not really any good!

I'm also a beginner guitar builder, and I think that the next guitar I'm going to build will be a flamenco guitar. I just built a steel string (I still need to spray the finish and do a final set up), and it would be cool to build something I don't already own. Besides, I can get the parts for a flamenco cheaper than a steel string or classical. Should be fun.

 

[Don Corleone]

shit where did you learn to build guitars, dave?

 

[soundave]

shit where did you learn to build guitars, dave?

Well, I've been reading a lot of books on it. The best thus far has been Guitarmaking: Tradition & Technology by Cumpiano & Natelson. It's considered the bible of guitarmaking by most luthiers.

I also took a class just recently. That's how I made my steel string. It was from a kit, so some of the harder stuff (side bending, for example) were already done. But don't let that fool you. There was still a lot of work to be done. And the guitar is in the white right now, as I can't decide how I'll finish it. I think I'm going to go waterbased (KTM-9) instead of nitrocellulose lacquer. The latter is harder to apply in terms of gear, and also pretty environmentally unfriendly. I'm also considering learning how to do french polish.

I have some last minute things to finish on it. I have to carve the neck to my desired final thickness and shape (right now it's roughly the right shape, but feels sort of like a log!), then let it sit at tension for a few weeks before really dealing with the final action. I'm guessing I'm going to have to sand the saddle just a bit more to get the action right. Maybe a 1/4 turn of the truss rod and a shim under the nut. I'm pretty close right now, but it's still a bit high. Oh yeah, and I forgot to put in the side dots on the neck, which isn't a big deal. It's a long way from perfect, and there were LOTS of bumps along the way, but it was great learning experience.

I'm slowly putting together tools for a shop (I'm hoping to expand that this xmas), but I don't really have the space for a full on workshop yet. We're planning a move in the not too distant future, so I'll be looking for a house that has a room that could be a workshop/music room. I'm going to try to get my next guitar parts less assembled. I think I'm going to take some weekend classes with a local luthier, who sort of lets you use his shop and guides you along the way. As I understand it.

Anyhow, my dream is that after I'm done being a stay at home dad, I can get into guitarmaking and repair. And as much as I can learn while the kids are babies, the better. I'll post pics of my steel string later, for those interested.

 

[Don Corleone]

i always thought people studied guitar building at schools and that...for years. keep up the spirit, my friend

 

[soundave]

i always thought people studied guitar building at schools and that...for years. keep up the spirit, my friend

Thanks, Don.

You certainly can do learn lutherie at some schools. There's one in Arizona...can't recall the name. I imagine it will take years for me to build a guitar from scratch that I could even think of selling. Right now, I'm just going to do the best I can. And even when the result isn't what you had really hoped, you have a new guitar! Aside from action and neck feel issues(both to be fixed soon), the guitar I built sounds better than my Ibanez Artwood.

And, I don't currently have a flamenco guitar (right now, a classical is taking its place), so building one seems the right way to go.

 

[biggsy]

That's awesome Dave, definitely interested in seeing pics when you're done. I'm useless when it comes to guitars so what's the main differences between classical and flamenco guitars? Is it in the materials or the design or something else?

 

[Don Corleone]

yeah i was wondering the same thing braighs

 

[soundave]

That's awesome Dave, definitely interested in seeing pics when you're done. I'm useless when it comes to guitars so what's the main differences between classical and flamenco guitars? Is it in the materials or the design or something else?

It's a combination of both. Some people will use classicals for flamenco (soloists in particular, as the clasical has a warmer more sustaining tone), but the flamenco guitar is different.

First of all, materials. The classical will typically have a spruce or cedar top (spruce being a bit brighter). Flamencos almost excusively are spruce. The sides (ribs) and the back are where the differences really begin. Classicals will mostly use rosewood of some kind (mine is brazilian rosewood, aka jacaranda). Flamencos are traditionally made of cypress (historically, Spanish cypress, though it is expensive now as it is, I believe, endangered). The fingerboards of classicals use ebony (like violins) or dark rosewood, as will flamencos. The bridges on both are ebony. The flamenco will have golpeador, or tap plates attached to the soundboard. They protect the guitar from the percussive taps that are part of flamenco guitar playing (golpe).

Traditionally, flamenco guitars had wooden, friction tuning pegs, like a violin.

Nowadays, most come with the same kind of tuners that you find on a classical. Some people claim that the wooden ones improve the sound, but I think tuning is a lot more difficult.

The design is where the biggest differences are, and they reflect the different manner and settings in which the two instruments are played. The classical is built in such a way as to have a rich, even, sustaining tone. It's typically a solo instrument, lyrical and harmonious. The flamenco guitar basically got its start accompanying dancers, and was played a lot more percussively. It was like drums and guitar in one. It had to cut through a real racket (the dancers stomp around and provide the other part of the percussion). And it was played very fast. So, keeping that in mind...

Flamenco sound boxes are thinner (making the sound more trebly and cutting), the wood is thinner. The top isn't really domed at all, wheras it is slightly in a classical. The bracing on a flamenco is thinner (to help the top move more at the higher frequencies), and may even have less bracing. They both use "fan bracing"

(steel strings use an x-brace, typically because it is stronger--the strings exert 180 pounds of force on the soundboard when tuned to pitch!),

and every luthier does bracing differently. Even Torres, the great luthier who built Segovia's guitars, would change bracing patterns and thicknesses of braces from guitar to guitar, even if the dimensions were the same! Why? Well, I guess they tuned the tops by ear (using the mystical "tap tones" you hear about), and different pieces of wood respond to vibration differently.... Flamenco necks have little to not tilt (relief), the the frets are lower, and the saddle is thin, all contributing to lower action. As a result, flamenco guitars tend to be more buzzy than their classical counterparts, but that's part of the sound. It adds to the percussiveness. It does diminish the sustain (but in this fast strumming style, that's not a huge concern, I'd imagine). You typically string it with higher tension strings to account for this and improve playability.

So, in a nutshell: flamencos are brighter (in an uneven way), less sustaining, but faster than a typical classical.

 

[Kenneth R.]

This thread rules.

 

[soundave]

This thread rules.

Thanks Kenneth!

Hey, anyone have any good flamenco recs out there? Not just flamenco metal.

 

[biggsy]

Great reply dave. Thanks a lot. I'm eager to hear what other flamenco you guys are listening to as well, so recommend away!

 

[chrisdoig24k]

Wow, excellent explanation! Thanks

 

[soundave]

You guys are welcome! I love sharing what I've learned. I'm eager to post my guitar pics, but I gotta actually take them first (not so easy with little ones about), and then upload them somewhere... Soon.

I'm also hoping to build an electric in the near future, but that's a totally different thing. Think I might try for something more in the strat family than say, Les Paul. We'll see.

 

[rrjii2000]

WOW, nice work Dave.

 

[domonicrini]

Marc Rizzo (Soulfly) Interview Maximum Threshold Radio Show

Interview: Marc Rizzo 12/22 @ 9pm EST

I am looking forward to the interview. I sure hope others are able to register on the site and participate on the show. We will have the chatroom open and we will ask any questions you have for Marc.

Just go to : http://maximumthreshold.net and sign up there.
Be on the site at 8pm when we go live and hope you can be in the chatroom also.

Thanks again!!
Dom
dom@maximumthreshold.net
http://maximumthreshold.net

 

[biggsy]

:Spam:

On topic, how'd you get along with Ottmar Liebert dave?

 

[soundave]

On topic, how'd you get along with Ottmar Liebert dave?

I actually ended up getting Paco Peña this time. Ottmar Liebert next!

I also got Flametal... haven't listened yet. I'll be sure to post my thoughts on that.

EDIT: So I just listened to Flametal's The Elder. I wasn't really listening carefully, but here's what I think: the flamenco is a lot more integrated on these tracks than the youtube vid I posted. It runs throughout the songs instead of metal section-flamenco section, etc. The production of the album is kind of mediocre at best, which is a shame. I've heard they remixed and remastered this with some new tracks. I bet it makes a difference. Apparently Marty Friedman guests on the album. It also has a "hidden track" that's some really nice acoustic stuff. [rant] Will people stop doing hidden tracks, please! Just make it a goddam track. What is it, 1992? Geesh. Any novelty it once had is lost, and it is just thoroughly annoying now. [/rant]

 

[biggsy]

I only have Misa Flamenca and Azahara but I should get some more. I really like his stuff. I pretty much have enough flamenco for a couple of months right now though, I just bought Paco De Lucia's Antologia!