FOH Speakers/Arrangement for Cathedral with Dome Ceiling

[colynomial]

Hi Guys,

Just looking for a little bit of advice regarding an audio setup I've been tasked with at a local church building. We've already got some pieces to work with but the biggest question is what exactly to do for the mains. I don't have a great picture of the church ceiling but you can kinda get a sense of the space here:

The ceiling is very high, say probably ~40ft, but I think I'd like to mount a pair of speakers about foot off the front of the stage hanging from the ceiling pointing downwards towards the middle of the sanctuary. Any causes for concern doing it this way? More importantly, does anyone have any recommendations for speakers? Right now we're using a pair Electro Voice 300 SX just mounted on the walls beside the stage but the sound distribution is really bad and people who sit in the wings are just getting their ears blasted. I wouldn't be opposed to continue using them as mains, but they're black so we'd have to paint them and I'm not sure if they're really the best type of speaker for the space.

Budget isn't really an issue, I've just been told to do what it takes to make it work for the space and they'll write the cheque. So of course I'd like to be as economical as possible since it's a church, but I'm open to anything. Oh, and I have a couple of different crown XLS power amps, the largest being an XLS 1000. However, we could upgrade this too.

I was also thinking I'd like to put a sub somewhere in the space too. Most of the music that's played is "contemporary" (ie. the FOH mix should sound like typical modern rock/pop).

Thanks in advance!

-Colin

 

[Sloan]

I gotta put a word in on the xls1000 amps real quick... We are using some here for monitors and they just don't have the headroom we need at all. Of course measure up your needs and overshoot a bit with the power so you will run clean.

I have not had the chance to work in a dome shaped room as pictured but browse about some of the church sound forums and I'm sure you will find some good info.

 

[egan.]

The 500lb elephant on class D amps is that they don't have the volume or headroom of comparably rated conventional amps.

 

[fade_2_black]

Whatever you're putting in, with that multi-storied seating arrangement, you'll be best flying the system. The EV SX300s make a surprising amount of noise for their size but you really want to cross them over at around 100 or so before they start getting too muddy. Great little boxes for fill. You'd probably want something gruntier than an XLS1000 for them though.

 

[colynomial]

Thanks for the input so far guys.

I suppose we could paint the EVs white and just use them. I think they are actually being powered by the matching EV power amp at the moment which I just assumed would be weaker than the Crown but perhaps I'm wrong. I'll have to check the specs next time I'm over there.

If I did stick with the EVs and cross them over as F2B suggest, any thoughts on where I might able to position the sub? As you can see from the photo, I probably cannot stick it dead center in front of the stage. I wonder if I could actually put it at the back of the stage without feedback issues since the level will probably be relatively low.

I'll Google some church audio forums, but if anyone has any other ideas for mains beyond just reusing the EVs, that would be great. Thanks!

 

[SethTheGreat]

I would probably grab two more mains (possibly the same ones? I dunno... I've never used EV stuff, don't know how legit they are... They look a bit small to me for how big that room is..) and then mount the 4 of them like you said (hanging in front of the stage off to the sides), but similarly to this:

(not that many of course... Just trying to give you an idea of the orientation)

That way you've got 2 pointing at the folks downstairs, and 2 pointing at the folks upstairs.

If there is not enough room on the sides to accommodate this, I would just hang two like you said, then hang the other two similarly, but higher and further left and right for the folks in the balcony.

I can't really help you out on the subs without standing in the room (it's hard to tell the overall size from the photo).

I could make much better suggestions if I knew your budget.

You know what... Ask the church for a budget. It's really hard to figure out what you should get when you're stuck with, "Whatever it takes! ...But not too much.."



Edit: Yes colynomial, I did steal your Zelda avatar idea

 

[colynomial]

Haha, I think I honestly just Googled "avatar" like 3 years ago and Link was the first one that seemed to "speak" to me.

So what about this idea- we actually have two additional sets of EV 100s. Same speaker housing as the 300s rated for lower power. I could technically cluster all six total in some kind of configuration. I'm not sure if the 100s sound really and worse than the 300s or if the impedance would get screwy with mismatched speakers but I could probably get quite a bit of fill that way.

Honestly, the budget is ~10k but that would be for the whole project. I don't really need anything major besides the mains but it would have to include, probably 200ft run of speaker cable, power amps, mounting bracket (haven't even really though about how that will work either).

 

[SethTheGreat]

I set up a PA for a church a few years back with a 5k budget (including mains, subs, rolling rack case, allen & heath mixer, cables, compressors, a crossover, and a couple crown power amps) and it turned out really well. We used to do metal shows there with 800-1000 people in the audience and it still sounded reeeeaaaally good. Point being, if you're smart about it and you do your research, you can put together a great sounding system with quite a bit less than 10k.

I'm not sure if the 100s sound really and worse than the 300s or if the impedance would get screwy with mismatched speakers but I could probably get quite a bit of fill that way.

I wouldn't worry about mismatched impedance with those EVs because I would make sure I bought an appropriate power amp for each pair.

One thing to keep in mind when you're shopping and perusing these church sound forums: The more speakers you have 'pushing air' the easier it is going to be for everyone to hear without it seeming 'loud'

One important distinction you need to make when setting up a church system vs a venue system is that at church, it's usually pretty early and people don't want their faces blasted off right after they rolled out of bed


Edit: Make sure you understand how to properly match a power amp to a speaker before you go buying power amps. There are guides all over the place on the internet if you're not already familiar. Also, make sure you understand the difference between RMS and peak wattage

 

[fade_2_black]

Check what the EV amp you have running the speakers is. If you've got one of the Precision Series amps around, you're in luck, those are serious amps. The P3000 is one of my favourite power amps of all time, despite being stupidly heavy.

You probably won't want to hang the Sx boxes horizontally as SethTheGreat has recommended. Point source boxes don't work together the same way line array boxes do and you'll end up with pretty uneven coverage and phasing issues (unless you're looking at getting a nice processor and dealing with a whole bunch of all-pass filters). However, you could look at hanging a Sx300 and Sx100 each side with horns apart (ie, bottom box upside down). Use the 300 on top, aimed at the top story, and have the 100 aimed at the bottom. Depending on how steep the angles would need to be, you'll probably also end up with some nice coupling in the 12"s.

What are you using to process your mains? If you have decent delay and phase shift capabilities, in theory, you'll be able to place the sub where ever you like. I wouldn't recommend placing it at the rear of the stage, perhaps downstage right next to that exit door?

On a side note, looks like you're using Sx300s for monitors also. Should look into getting some of these:
http://www.muzeekworld.com/products...o+voice++F200++Monitor+feet+for+Sx100,+Sx300+

 

[arvoitus]

Is this for voice/small acoustic acts only, or full pop/rock bands?

If you want to do it good and budget is not a issue: L'Acoustic Kara.
Rooms like this with a balcony can be very problematic. Standard point source speakers on the ground won't reach the balcony so a line array is your best option.

And if you don't have the expertise on this topic, go ask a proper pro audio company.

 

[arv_foh]

I would probably grab two more mains (possibly the same ones? I dunno... I've never used EV stuff, don't know how legit they are... They look a bit small to me for how big that room is..) and then mount the 4 of them like you said (hanging in front of the stage off to the sides), but similarly to this:

(not that many of course... Just trying to give you an idea of the orientation)

That way you've got 2 pointing at the folks downstairs, and 2 pointing at the folks upstairs.

If there is not enough room on the sides to accommodate this, I would just hang two like you said, then hang the other two similarly, but higher and further left and right for the folks in the balcony.

I can't really help you out on the subs without standing in the room (it's hard to tell the overall size from the photo).

I could make much better suggestions if I knew your budget.

You know what... Ask the church for a budget. It's really hard to figure out what you should get when you're stuck with, "Whatever it takes! ...But not too much.."



Edit: Yes colynomial, I did steal your Zelda avatar idea

Um, no. This is terrible advice. You can't just take non-arrayable speakers and array them in a line array configuration and expect the same results.

OP since you said budget was no constraint for filling this space you really need a true line array system for consistent coverage from front to back, IF you want it covered with a single set of speakers.

At the low end you're taking $15,000-$20,000 or so for a constant curvature, 4 box per side setup like JBL VRX or QSC KLA arrays. These boxes are powered and don't require an amp rack. I would not waste 10 grand on a point source solution with multiple boxes and infills.

Contact these manufacturers and see if they will arrange a demo for you! A venue right down the street from me had QSC come in and fly an array, shoot the room for the proper coverage and they got to hear the system in their own room before they bought it. (It sounds great btw)

In regards to where you should put your sub, it doesn't really matter, you will get more output sticking it in a corner, but as long as it is time aligned to the top boxes and the signals arrive to the listener at the same time you can stick it pretty much anywhere, but you should experiment and find the place that has the best coverage.

 

[SethTheGreat]

Um, no. This is terrible advice. You can't just take non-arrayable speakers and array them in a line array configuration and expect the same results.

OP since you said budget was no constraint for filling this space you really need a true line array system for consistent coverage from front to back, IF you want it covered with a single set of speakers.

At the low end you're taking $15,000-$20,000 or so for a constant curvature, 4 box per side setup like JBL VRX or QSC KLA arrays. These boxes are powered and don't require an amp rack. I would not waste 10 grand on a point source solution with multiple boxes and infills.

Contact these manufacturers and see if they will arrange a demo for you! A venue right down the street from me had QSC come in and fly an array, shoot the room for the proper coverage and they got to hear the system in their own room before they bought it. (It sounds great btw)

In regards to where you should put your sub, it doesn't really matter, you will get more output sticking it in a corner, but as long as it is time aligned to the top boxes and the signals arrive to the listener at the same time you can stick it pretty much anywhere, but you should experiment and find the place that has the best coverage.

Hahahaha... Sorry :/

He wasn't getting a lot of advice at the time so I was trying to give him something. I've set up a few PA systems that turned out really well, but never anything with a room that complicated... It's always been regular "venue" style PA systems with some mains on the left and some mains on the right and a sub somewhere.

At least my bad advice maybe prompted some of the more educated responses?


Edit: Arv, he did mention that his budget needs to be around or under 10k. My parents' (big-ish) church has some mains and subs up front, then speakers (around a 6 inch woofer with a small tweeter) hanging from the ceiling all around the sanctuary. Is a setup like that a bad idea? Keep in mind that the system probably doesn't need much apparent loudness (I would assume).

 

[arv_foh]

Edit: Arv, he did mention that his budget needs to be around or under 10k. My parents' (big-ish) church has some mains and subs up front, then speakers (around a 6 inch woofer with a small tweeter) hanging from the ceiling all around the sanctuary. Is a setup like that a bad idea? Keep in mind that the system probably doesn't need much apparent loudness (I would assume).

It's hard to say without seeing it.. but if it gets the coverage required it probably is fine.. you just want to minimize overlapping coverage because it causes comb filtering.

A large limitation with point source speakers is coverage (most trap boxes have 75 degrees of horizontal coverage, or less). The SX300 mentioned has 65 degrees. Line arrays have very wide coverage so you can cover the entire room with (usually) only a left/right configuration. Larger spaces may still require fills. You also have better vertical coverage, with the top most boxes firing at the balcony and the lower boxes firing at those in the seating below.

You can't do a line array project with 10k. It's just not possible even if you buy the cheapest array boxes available. Churches have moneys so if I were OP I'd tell them it would be a little more than anticipated to get a proper system in there. Also, if it is important, the JBL VRX is available in white.

 

[egan.]

I've seen a lot of PS center cluster + delay speaker setups in churches and many of them work well but systems like these are really only intended for speech reinforcement and really fall off for music or anything else.
One important thing to come of this discussion is that flying is a must in any situation where there is a dome b/c it's critical to keep sound out of there (to the extent you can). Anything that goes into the dome will bounce around like a pinball before coming back out to ruin intelligibility and create weird frequency anomalies.

 

[colynomial]

Thank you all for the excellent insight. I've read everything but haven't had time to reply.

Long story short, we're making a decision this week. My only problem at this point is that I don't want to assume the liability of bolting the whole thing into the ceiling. Ultimately, we're going to enlist the help of a professional contractor for this part of the job and will probably just buy matched amp(s)/mains instead of trying to rig something custom EVs.

Has anyone had experience with the Yorkville Coliseum line of speakers?