+1
Music is about enjoyment. If the artist enjoys it, as does the audience, who the fuck cares?
For all you Lady Gaga fans...
- Thread starter MEGA DAVE
- Start date
+1
Music is about enjoyment. If the artist enjoys it, as does the audience, who the fuck cares?
JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
I don't think anyone was at all overstating worth, Ermin, but rather trying to dissolve notion that it lacks worth entirely. Like the two posters above me, I'll reference virtually any metal band's lyrics to prove the same exact point you just did, with the same negative resonances in the fan base as you mentioned.
And please, don't act like "this sex/fame/fashion obsessed culture that has been spilling out of the US and eating away at the rest of the world like a cancer" is a US-only thing - it's a people in general thing. It's called pop music for a reason - it's popular, as in most people like it. Most people are stupid and superficial, that's just something you'll eventually have to come to terms with. Not saying it's a good thing and that there's no sense in fighting against it when you can, but it gets old after the 23453546th time.
And please, don't act like "this sex/fame/fashion obsessed culture that has been spilling out of the US and eating away at the rest of the world like a cancer" is a US-only thing - it's a people in general thing. It's called pop music for a reason - it's popular, as in most people like it. Most people are stupid and superficial, that's just something you'll eventually have to come to terms with. Not saying it's a good thing and that there's no sense in fighting against it when you can, but it gets old after the 23453546th time.
TesticleMilkshake
pewpewlazrz
Eh, I understand where you're coming from. It took me a very long time to appreciate Lady Gaga. She's a decent lyricist and a great vocalist, despite not being a Brittany Spears or Miley Cyrus. But I find it hard to fathome that her transformation from Stefani Germanotta to Lady Gaga circa Lollapalooza 2007 to current Lady Gaga was exactly healthy. I mean, this occurred over a period of 5 or 6 years. That just seems to be too fast to fully process your identity or fame. I feel bad for her, because if and when she falls from fame, she's going to fall really hard.
This is going to be on her new album. Kind sounds like the old stuff.
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Harry Hughes
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- Apr 25, 2009
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Look, I understand you dig some of the more poppier stuff that many of us just will never like, but don't expect many to see eye to eye.
No one (not even Gareth, even though it may come across that way) is saying that for music to be real art, it has to be over the top avant garde craziness with long drawn out compositions with crazy chaotic dissonance at points with parts of free jazz somehow shoved in between it all.
If that's how I thought about it, I wouldn't be here.
You keep quoting Egan's post, but almost no one like that exists and they certainly don't at the Sneap board.
And anyway, Pink Floyd have proved you can make AWESOME music and sell a bazillion records without resorting to silly costumes.
They even had avant garde elements in their music too.
The average person now "doesn't have the time" (as they would say) to listen to a Pink Floyd album, which typically has songs much longer than the average dance pop song.
QFT.
Most fans of that stuff just aren't interested in the deeper side of things in general.
Stereotypes can quite often have a real basis in reality, as I've come to learn.
Many of the blond popular girls during high school really are as shallow as they appeared on the surface. The type that make 20 Facebook posts a day to tell us about every little detail of their lives.
They had everything handed to them and as such, became self absorbed because of it, and constantly needing instant gratification.
It becomes ingrained into their personality, and they're the women that even still in their 30s are in clubs getting wasted and trying to pick up dudes my age (I hate nightclubs personally, but people I know my age go and have cougars try to pick them up
)This type of music fits into a tee with that kind of personality.
It's the "Me me me" thing, the "I want it now! NOW!" thing.
Nothing except themselves are important, and such, music isn't important to them either.
It all fits in well with the "go go go" society where we have become surrounded by fast food, microwave oven meals, reality TV shows and lame comedy and action movies. And topped off by music that gives you an instant hit, music that doesn't take at least 100 listens to truly hear at least some of the details, and then for every time you hear it after that, you never truly stop hearing all the little details.
It's why I have been listening to Night is the New Day almost every day for the last few months and why I was listening to Buried the Buried and Me's "Colors" album literally everyday for months after I bought it, because it just offers so much depth.
The mediocre film you'll probably just watch once, perhaps feel it when it's on, and when it's over, that's it
A truly great film is one that can leave a shiver down your spine well after it's ended and one you keep thinking about months after you seen it, and one you can watch over and over again to pick out the details.
I know after having heard some truly great albums for the first time, for about an hour after it ended just sitting their in disbelief at how good it was, and the emotions were still running through me.
A truly great meal you can take the time to cook, has taken a backseat to fast food. And as a result health has taken a back seat.
I could easily sit on my ass, not exercise ever, eat fast food all day, quit playing guitar, studying up on my favorite hobbies I obsess, but it's too easy really.
The instant gratification is what I truly hate about today's society.
I actually take care of my physical health, eat well and engage in fairly introverted activities like studying a lot and playing guitar everyday. All things that make feel good in the LONG term.
At times I just feel like I don't even fit into society, because I'm not the current norm of being fat, egotistical, self absorbed and having everything handed to me.
Harry Hughes
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Yes, I can sorta agree, but that is only the lyrical aspect.
Having silly lyrics doesn't take away from the musical artistry of Mr Bungle or Primus.
Many brutal death metal bands of course have silly lyrics, but I don't think it takes away at all from the musical side of things. They still take the music quite seriously, but it's reflected in the lyrics they don't take themselves seriously.
To an extent I can agree, but I think it's quite easy to see what a big force the US is.
Look at the clothing styles of Canadians, Australians, the British etc.
Jeans, VERY American thing to wear. I'm wearing them right now.
Baseball caps.......yes, I wear them on a regular basis too
Yeah, admittedly, I wear those flat peak ones that people seem to associate with gangster hip hop and somehow, metalcore. I just wear them because I like how they feel and look on me really.
The dance pop thing seems to be a mostly British (yep, being a 90s kid I remember frequently hearing The Spice Girls) and American thing, with the first wave being more a British thing and the recent thing more leaning towards an American thing.
Again, the US being undeniably influential in that respect.
The contemporary R&B (which seems to have absolutely no trace of blues in it that I can hear) thing is of course, a very American thing.
Yes, people are stupid everywhere, but I think it's denying the truth to say people outside the US aren't "Americanized stupid" (to coin a new phrase that hopefully makes sense
)Indeed, good post.
I have no doubt she's a great vocalist.
You trade away your soul to the industry, and in some shape or form, there WILL be consequences.
To what extent those consequences occur on a local level (that is, the individual)and/ or more global (music industry and society as a whole), it's hard to say really.
At least if you're just a guy in a metal band, no matter how big or small, you can move onto another project and people will still take the music seriously and will ALLOW them to do it (the acceptance of it).
But when you're a big act like that, that had just as many foes as friends (and many of the 'friends' being superficial fans who can't accept much change), and you fall off the bandwagon and you try to do something else, people generally wont be accepting of it. People wont allow it, wont accept it and she would ultimately just be known as "The Gaga who failed".
AudioGeekZine
arsehole know-it-all
AdamWathan
Member
I'm with Harry Hughes.
This booty shaking dance club bullshit isn't music. It is a totally different world and serves a totally different purpose than what music serves to me.
I don't care how smart, talented or creative Gaga is. I respect her totally, she is very talented.
But that doesn't make the actual fucking awful music she makes any different than this shit:
Or this shit:
It is fucking garbage. It serves no purpose other than to give people something get wasted to at a club and hit on sluts. I dunno... Music is supposed to mean something. This shit caters to subhumans.
This booty shaking dance club bullshit isn't music. It is a totally different world and serves a totally different purpose than what music serves to me.
I don't care how smart, talented or creative Gaga is. I respect her totally, she is very talented.
But that doesn't make the actual fucking awful music she makes any different than this shit:
Or this shit:
It is fucking garbage. It serves no purpose other than to give people something get wasted to at a club and hit on sluts. I dunno... Music is supposed to mean something. This shit caters to subhumans.
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JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
*Edit* arguing about this stuff on this forum is pointless.
I just wish that any thread ever about Lady Gaga, Joey Sturgis, BMTH, etc could stay on topic and not degenerate into some cyclic wankfest thanks to a few social retards who can't avoid thread titles that clearly indicate the content within.
I just wish that any thread ever about Lady Gaga, Joey Sturgis, BMTH, etc could stay on topic and not degenerate into some cyclic wankfest thanks to a few social retards who can't avoid thread titles that clearly indicate the content within.
GarethSE
New Metal Member
- Jul 5, 2008
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I always thought quote was reserved for Gareth
Same here, from now on, that quote is reserved for being directed at me only >:{{{{{
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
I just had to address this point, having left high school about 6 years ago, and having seen how the lives of some of these girls had progressed. I'll grab 4 girls off the top of my head.
Girl 1) Has a boyfriend in prison.
Girl 2) Is on her second kid and works as a hairdresser.
Girl 3) Went to Thailand to get a boob job.
Girl 4) Went with Girl 3 to get a boob job in Thailand.
High school personas and social circles set into motion a lot more down the track than most give them credit for. If you're vain and self-absorbed during high school, chances are that you'll retain those 'qualities' out in the real world and reap what they sow.
For the other stuff...
JeffTD said:
Perhaps you would, but it would be beside the point, because I'm not trying to champion metal here. People overstate the worth of most metal music here all the time too. I'm definitely not going to be the one to defend its integrity, because lord-knows it got blasted away beyond redemption 3 decades ago by the glam bands.
One thing I would posit though, is that if you were to select random groups of artists from either dance pop or various metal genres, and take the aggregate, you would likely find that past the 90% majority of 'mutilate, rape kill rawr' metal acts you'd also find some bands trying to communicate something deeper. Whether it be commentary on the human condition, the state of the world, personal tragedy etc. etc. It would likely still be a better ratio to any dance pop/rnb acts, whose genres are tied directly into superficial lyrical content.
What I'm trying to get at here is this sense of reverse-contrarianism I'm feeling from a sector of the board as of late. It seemed to kick off a lot with Paramore, where you started seeing people speaking out against how boring metal is, how much more awesome some of the newer rock, pop punk, whatever is instead. At the end its nothing more than a representation of where the listener is at that point in time. I've certainly had my stint with metal. I'm basically over it... but to go latch onto another genre and immediately start denouncing metal as inferior, meanwhile trying to pad my ego with the notion that im somehow a deeper listener because I can extract more meaning from what are inherently simple pop songs is asinine. At the end of the day, the majority of Paramore listeners are 16 year old girls, the majority of Lady Gaga listeners are tramp-stamped whores-in-training and conversely the men who hope to bone them, and the majority of metal listeners are too fat/too skinny guys with way too many tatts, piercings and a propensity to have played way too much DnD during their school years, and the emotionally scarred/attention whore tramps who follow the scene.
The fashion and mainstream culture that all these genres perpetuate is crap. As soon as there is a 'scene', those basic human traits of 'I need to belong, I want to stand out most etc. etc.' rise to the surface, and you get the same idiocy you were running from in the first place.
Nobody is going to give anyone a sticker because they can tolerate pop music. Being musicians, most of us likely have to 'scale back' our quota for what would constitute an engaging arrangement, in order to make our tastes sit in line with pop. Chances are a lot of us got into metal because we initially felt it was somehow more technical or more engaging musically than what's on the radio. So, years down the track, having come full circle and back to pop/dance music... what do we really like it for? How many of us would believe that without the immense funding and production methods (which are out of reach of the vast majority of metal bands) that pop music would be even remotely engaging to anybody, not just us? All you need to do is listen to the tracks in the OP to hear it.
Course it is, hence why it's taken root so readily. But there is always a source, and the source keeps producing. The USA is the western world's culture leader, and what its entertainment industry does the others inevitably follow. As much resentment as I could have for it at any one point in time, I have double the amount for the other nations which absorb and follow so readily - gradually polluting their own identity until there is nothing left apart from the global desire for youth, fame & money.
Melb_shredder
Orpheus: Melodic Death
JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
Your first point would be fine if nobody ever grew up after highschool, not to mention you just picked 4 girls at random? I can pick 4 random fuckups out of any group of 10 people pretty easily, too.
Your point about metal as a whole vs dance pop as a whole is irrelevant, since the later is designed to be superficial, as I said before. Don't look for stuff isn't supposed to be there. On the other hand, is metal supposed to be at all emotional/deep/non-cheesy? If there's a general aim for that, it's pretty much failed as a genre, by your example.
I hope this translates over right: Fox news is a right-wing propagandist media outlet, and presents virtually zero respectable journalism. CNN on the other hand, is supposed to be a legitimate news outlet, but only a small percentage of their content is respectable journalism. The problem here is that one has failed while the other, while not presenting anything anything inherently useful or beneficial, has succeeded in reaching it's goal.
I agree on your assessment of the bandwagoning this forum is guilty of, but you're not innocent in this yourself, either. That said, I never latched on to dance music and I touted it's superiority to metal in one aspect, not as a whole. I also never said I could extract more meaning from simple pop songs; at that point you're just putting words in my mouth.
Not gonna argue with you on the crap culture perpetuated, but that insinuates that it was decent in the first place or that there are viable alternatives. "Pop culture" is always going to be shit, by virtue of it being the culture of what appeals to the masses. The masses are stupid, I'm not going to expect them to have great taste. None of us is as dumb as all of us.
If you find nothing but the production to be of redeeming value in material like in the OP, I don't know what to tell you. There is something about the inherent simplicity that appeals to me about it - it doesn't take much effort to get into the music, and it doesn't distract me from doing anything else. As such, it tends to make a solid soundtrack for social settings, driving, the gym, etc etc etc. In keeping things metal, it's basically the same reason I'd rather listen to Pantera than Opeth when drinking, Killswitch Engage than Cynic when hanging out with friends, or BMTH rather than Nevermore while driving. Tastes aside, I'm hoping you get what I'm saying.
At the end of the day, I like hanging out with people who don't listen to metal, and I'd rather listen to some music than none in most situations - sure, we could find a happy medium and everyone could tolerate what's playing, but if everyone is into it because it's easily accessible and catchy... why not? And if I can end up appreciating it for how easy these people make it seem to write something so damn catchy and so to the point? I would love to be able to write that effectively, even if I didn't use it to write pop music.
More than that, if I'm not going to change the status quo any time soon, and I'm going to end up hearing the stuff anyways, it'll make me a happier person if I can find something I like about it.
I think what I'm most concerned about is your guys' constant criticism of shallow, slutty girls - they have merits, and definitely have uses!
Not to mention a fair number of the people who go to nightclubs/parties and dance to this kind of shit are actually decent people - it would be like painting everyone at a metal show as degenerate heathens, simply because there's a moshpit. Being a (possibly former) member of a minority, niché group (metal) that's generally looked down upon, I find it baffling that you (the forum/people in general) apply to other genres the same mindset that you hate being applied to your own.
Keregioz
Kimon Zeliotis
Machinated
Member
jeffs kind of made every point id want to make and more so ill let him take this battle haha.
even though you made your comment about the majority of people listening to metal, its still not really a fair comment IMO. Id say that saying "all metalheads are devil worshippers" is a closer analogy (in the sense that i havent met either at any point in my life, yet are the mainstream perceptions).
If you don't get a kind of music, its your loss. saying its meaningless is totally derogatory to anyone who gets SOMETHING out of "said" music and indeed EVERYONE involved with the creation and existence of that music. metal is an ignorant genre that tries to come across as open minded. seems selective to me.....
FWIW, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paparazzi_%28Lady_Gaga_song%29 the meaning of the song is not overly deep, but again is more interesting and makes more sense than 99% of metal (if not more, thanks to good use of simple english).
even though you made your comment about the majority of people listening to metal, its still not really a fair comment IMO. Id say that saying "all metalheads are devil worshippers" is a closer analogy (in the sense that i havent met either at any point in my life, yet are the mainstream perceptions).
If you don't get a kind of music, its your loss. saying its meaningless is totally derogatory to anyone who gets SOMETHING out of "said" music and indeed EVERYONE involved with the creation and existence of that music. metal is an ignorant genre that tries to come across as open minded. seems selective to me.....
FWIW, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paparazzi_%28Lady_Gaga_song%29 the meaning of the song is not overly deep, but again is more interesting and makes more sense than 99% of metal (if not more, thanks to good use of simple english).
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
Interesting you say that, because just a few posts ago Harry wrote this:
Harry Hughes said:
to which you responded with this:
JeffTD said:
Backflipping for the sake of suiting your argument at whichever point in time isn't a good way to make a point in the long run.
It's also odd to set arbitrary goals for an entire genre of music, then determine whether or not is has failed or succeeded by your own criteria. You can make virtually any point you want if you set the rules yourself, but it makes no sense at the end of the day. The bottom line is that a greater majority of metal music is going to be less superficial, lyrically, than dance pop (that says a lot in itself!). Which at this point leads us back to whether you actually contest that it's superficial, as you originally did, or whether you agree that it's superficial (after you backflipped to counter my argument) but simply irrelevant to the issue at hand?
JeffTD said:
By whose judgment? One again, if you set your own arbitrary criteria you can obtusely make just about any point you like. The bottom line is that most people would take a news organization that provides even a grain of truth and integrity, over one where the content is almost entirely fabricated to serve an agenda. If I were to construct my own criteria for 'broadcasting with integrity', the network that provides the lesser degree of overall truth would be the failure. Once again, the criteria for these judgments cannot be arbitrary in order for an absolute point to be made. You're trying to apply your own criteria to my reasoning - which just isn't ever going to work because there's a mismatch in the logic used to arrive at the end result.
This is ultimately going to be pretty silly and circular if we're riding different choo-choo trains to the same destination. At the end of the day I take no issue with people enjoying this music. My original comments were mostly in response to Seth's opinions, and in small part to this line of yours: 'Tell Lady Gaga that the music she writes isn't meaningful or highly emotional'.
As a result I wanted to throw my own perspective in the mix. We probably agree on a lot more than we disagree on, but these things have a way of getting sidetracked.
This is about more thought than I would've wanted to give to this scene of music for a lifetime, so I'm happy to call it a day.
JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
I've never backflipped on any statement - you've selectively quoted to make it look like I have.
In the post I edited out entirely (that you somehow quoted part of, 40 minutes after I edited it), I addressed that - I don't consider Lady Gaga to be generic dance pop shit like you do; she's definitely in the upper echelon of pop artists and I stand by my comments about both her and dance pop in general, just like I'll stand by any comment saying that most metal is pure, unadulterated shit but a band like Gojira is way above any that assessment.
Odd to set arbitrary goals for the music? Your the one accusing that genre of failing to reach goals you've imposed on it - saying that the lyrics are "tied directly into superficial lyrical content," as if they're supposed to be better? I still don't buy that metal would have a higher percentage of intellectually stimulating lyrics, or whatever you want to classify it as. You have to hold metal to the same standards if you're going to compare them like that - lyrics tied directly into barely-pubescent obsessions with violence, gore, the occult, etc.
The "by whose judgement" bit related to CNN, by their own, by their advertising slogans alone, if not by claims by their network president. You've read way too far into the news network analogy I was making; completely distorted my intent with it - you can make any attack on my argument you want once you've done that.
It's silly and circular because you're apparently always going to default back to self-aggrandizing statements to close your arguments with. Calling it a day is all fine and well, but not when you've combed through my arguments, selected a few you could semi-quote and read too far into, and left the rest untouched while still subtly claiming victory because you're somehow above the genre.
In the post I edited out entirely (that you somehow quoted part of, 40 minutes after I edited it), I addressed that - I don't consider Lady Gaga to be generic dance pop shit like you do; she's definitely in the upper echelon of pop artists and I stand by my comments about both her and dance pop in general, just like I'll stand by any comment saying that most metal is pure, unadulterated shit but a band like Gojira is way above any that assessment.
Odd to set arbitrary goals for the music? Your the one accusing that genre of failing to reach goals you've imposed on it - saying that the lyrics are "tied directly into superficial lyrical content," as if they're supposed to be better? I still don't buy that metal would have a higher percentage of intellectually stimulating lyrics, or whatever you want to classify it as. You have to hold metal to the same standards if you're going to compare them like that - lyrics tied directly into barely-pubescent obsessions with violence, gore, the occult, etc.
The "by whose judgement" bit related to CNN, by their own, by their advertising slogans alone, if not by claims by their network president. You've read way too far into the news network analogy I was making; completely distorted my intent with it - you can make any attack on my argument you want once you've done that.
It's silly and circular because you're apparently always going to default back to self-aggrandizing statements to close your arguments with. Calling it a day is all fine and well, but not when you've combed through my arguments, selected a few you could semi-quote and read too far into, and left the rest untouched while still subtly claiming victory because you're somehow above the genre.
Jaymz
Stymphalian Productions
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
Interesting. What do you think was selective about it? Anyone can look back and see that's exactly what was written. It was either a poor choice of words, or a backflip, but you can't get out saying 'naw folks, nothing to see here'. Is it because I omitted some lines from Harry's post that weren't relevant to the issue at hand? You specifically said that all of what he had written was untrue. That encompassed the quoted section.
'Generic dance pop shit' may be your turn at putting words in my mouth.
Re: goals, you were the one originally disputing Harry's assertion that this music is superficial. Now you're saying it's supposed to be anything but? I don't understand how that paragraph is supposed to do anything other than solidify the points I've been making. I've been trying to follow a line of reasoning and arguing that you established. I never even brought metal into it until you did - it was always beside the point, yet you revert back to it as if I'm somehow trying to champion it's integrity. Let's be clear: I'm not.
Let's say we do this:
Let's say dance's diametric equivalent is 'lyrics tied directly into perpetual nights on the town, skulling everything that costs more than $10 a shot, and riding all the dicks in sight until you need a good dollop of vagisil'. So where does that leave us? How many dance artists are going to deviate from singing songs about... dance... about clubbing... about nightlife? How many metal bands are going to deviate from singing/screaming about violence, gore, the occult etc.? You'll find a greater propensity amongst the metal artists to deviate from that cliche you've ascribed them, simply by virtue of all the different areas the music encompasses. Dance, by virtue of what it is... is confined to one area, one sound, more or less one type of subject matter. That subject matter is inherently shallow. This is what you originally disputed.
Not that I care, but I'm not sure if using a band that consist of self-righteous, sea shepherd-loving, neo-hippies as a representative for the upper echelon of metal music's integrity is the most balanced thing to do, but your call.
JeffTD said:
Not sure I follow here. You seem to be associating me with some agenda I don't have. I don't perceive the majority of metal, nor the majority of dance-pop to be astoundingly deep or meaningful stuff. I don't see myself as 'above' anything; I regularly listen to Nickelback for chrissakes. The reason I selectively responded to your post is because I'm rapidly losing wind and desire to continue this self-defeating line of arguing. I've tried to be more thorough this time, in the hopes that it appeases you. Assuming that the way I've closed every post here with is somehow self-aggrandizing, what exactly would I have to do in order to call it a day in a form that's agreeable to you?
It's somewhat amusing, because you're here trying to dictate to me the terms that I should argue by. 'You just picked a random group of 4, I can do that too', 'you only selectively responded to my arguments', 'you've read too far into some of them'. I mean c'mon.
TesticleMilkshake
pewpewlazrz
Speaking of teh Gagas:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_local...a-meat-costume-waitress-models-in-meatpacking
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_local...a-meat-costume-waitress-models-in-meatpacking
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