Freedom to play

[Son of Magni]

This is to Steve, but in a way to everyone who plays bass, or even just thinks about it. Since I'm not a metal fan per se, but I like any music that's good, so listening to metal I'm thinking that for a bass player it seems like a really restrictive genre. But listening to the Sick video, Steve somehow turns it into something where he has complete freedom, as much as in jazz or any jam-band setting. I'm kind of surprised (and amazed) by that.

And now thinking back on how that came to mind, I was thinking like Steve should play in some other styles like doing more of the Dark Hall stuff. But then I'm listening to what he's doing on that tune and what more could you want than to be able to play with that freedom...

So um, discuss how bass players can improvise in different genres

 

[lordcthulhu]

I'm not a bass player at all, but I am a huge bass fan. And few things about a band's sound could impress me or let me down more than the bass-presence and variation in playing. I don't give a shit whether a bassist uses fingers or a pick on a record, even if fingerstyle "looks" much much cooler. Metal need not be a really restrictive genre for a bassist, and anyone who feels that the bass should ONLY keep the rhythm and not try dabble in other genres and styles is only limiting their band's potential. Evergrey seem to be quite accomodating with their new bassist Jari (from Stratovarius), which is very good news. And SDG shows us that bass is no less important when playing at speed and competing with the double-bass drums - I simply love the climbing bass parts and counter melodies in Quo Vadis' Silence calls the Storm, even as the bass-drums are going at 200bpm

 

[DinoB]

I'm not sure about other bass players, but for me when i'm just jamming with some friends I sometimes like to stay in the pocket and just groove on that, but other times I like to be a little more outgoing and do fills, tapping, slapping, and just go nuts and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I'm fortunate enough to play with people that seem to enjoy it.

I don't know why the bass seems to be more restricted in metal. I was reading Sean Malone's blog the other day and he brought up the fact that even though he wrote bass parts for Cynic's album Focus, he continued to change and improve them when he played live. I used to do that in the first garage bands I was in, granted the music wasn't as complex, but I did it to keep myself entertained.

So when improvise I sometimes just play a lot of fills, but if I'm just jamming on some song I try to come up with a bass part that compliments the rest of the song without copying what the guitars are doing.

 

[Allfader]

The restriction is made for the bass player. On metal there's a lot of bad bassists, that's the reason. A bass player who just copy the guitar melodies is a mediocre bassist. for example, Black Metal. I'm a huge fan of BM but the most of bassist simply sucks. They do the same than guitars and that's really awful for me.

A very impressive bassist on Black metal is Tyr from Borknagar, Emperor and Satyricon. Check out Empiricism from Borknagar...It's really amazing.

Steve himself worked with Vintersorg, a Folk blackened metal band and for me, is the best bass work from this dude.

Skoll from Ulver and Arcturus is great too. Check out Ved Buens Ende.

 

[NicholasDWolfwood]

A lot of metal bands restrict the role that their bass players play. Specifically in death and black metal, a lot of bassists are often just root-note chuggers. Guys like Steve, Tyr, Martin Mendez (Opeth), Alex Webster, Francois Mongrain (Martyr) etc..they push the boundaries of what bass players in death metal specifically can play.

 

[Son of Magni]

I guess my original feeling about lack of freedom is due to the fact that one of the reasons that I got into jazz was that in most rock bands the bass players don't get to do anything interesting. And this was a long time ago, back when hard rock and metal were just diverging. But I agree that it's not always true, and Steve is a great example of how to break the mold.

NDW, your name reminds me of one of my heros, Nick DeWolf, MIT grad and co-founder of Teradyne. Any connection there?

 

[lordcthulhu]

It's a shame I can't hear Tyr very well in Empirial Live Ceremony. Seems like an opportunity wasted, methinks: Emperor was NEVER a bass-heavy band, but I always thought that was it's missing element.

 

[Allfader]

Martin Mendez sucks a lot, De Farfalla was better than him, even Akerfeldt on MAYH was better than mendez on bass.

Steve with Sadus, death and so much more bands and Sean Malone with Cynic and Aghora were the reference for groundbreaking bass lines on extreme metal.

 

[lordcthulhu]

De Farfalla was fantastic on the first two Opeth records, no doubt. I have to disagree with you that Mendez sucks though, I like his Fender Jazz bass tone - not the best for DM, but sounds great on the slower songs and on Damnation, imo. Jeez, I wish Sean Malone would put the Chapman Stick aside for a few years and go back to METAL BASSPLAYING

 

[NicholasDWolfwood]

Martin Mendez sucks a lot, De Farfalla was better than him, even Akerfeldt on MAYH was better than mendez on bass.

Listen to Still Life, Blackwater Park, Damnation, and Ghost Reveries, among any live show they do. Tell me that Mendez sucks then.

DeFarfalla was fired because he wanted to take the band into an even bigger freeform jazzish range than they already were, rather than getting heavier like Mikael wanted; DeFarfalla was never even into metal in the first place. Akerfeldt played root notes on MAYH. Strictly. There's hardly any bass presence even on that album.

Listen to something like "Godhead's Lament" or "Blackwater Park" and tell me that Mendez sucks. You're wrong, give it up.

 

[Allfader]

Listen to Still Life, Blackwater Park, Damnation, and Ghost Reveries, among any live show they do. Tell me that Mendez sucks then.

DeFarfalla was fired because he wanted to take the band into an even bigger freeform jazzish range than they already were, rather than getting heavier like Mikael wanted; DeFarfalla was never even into metal in the first place. Akerfeldt played root notes on MAYH. Strictly. There's hardly any bass presence even on that album.

Listen to something like "Godhead's Lament" or "Blackwater Park" and tell me that Mendez sucks. You're wrong, give it up.

I already know how the guy plays bass and I know on bass more or less 80% Opeth songs and can say Mendez is a 1-5-8 bass player, just fifths, octaves and obviously the same root note than guitars.

De farfalla was so much better than Mendez, tell me Mendez has been done something a little similar to 'To bid you farewell'? nope.

About Godhead's Lament, only on the chorus he does something 'different', again, 1-5-8, on the rest of the song he plays the same than guitars. on Opeth the guitars are complex, but the bass just follows them - at least with Mendez.

On Ghost reveries - the album - he makes some interesting things here and there but any bassist can do so much more on bass than him, listening the Opeth guitars work and the ambience they do.

Akerfeldt did a great job IMO on songs like April Ethereal, When, Amen Corner and Credence. He's not playing just root notes, or u are deaf?

Of course there's a couple of songs where he does some interesting things, but mainly is a 1-5-8 bass player.

to finish this, compare any song from damnation with Sharpen your mind tools from Vintersorg where Steve played or Origin frm Borknagar... that's the way a bassist plays on a progressive acoustic song. Honestly I would like to hear damnation with De Farfalla arrengements.


edit:
windowpane:
1riff :F# 1-5-8-5-1-1-8-5-1-5-8-5
2riff :c# 1-7(down)-1-5-8-5-1
3riff: just root notes / A#1-5-8-/F#1
4riff: the same than guitars
5riff: root notes

in my time of need:
1- root note
2 root note
3 a little fill on Bb minor
4- chorus - mainly root note.

the rest is more or less the same.
To rid the disease, Hope leaves 95% root notes.
The moor =95% root notes
Benighted= root notes, etx

 

[NicholasDWolfwood]

I already know how the guy plays bass and I know on bass more or less 80% Opeth songs and can say Mendez is a 1-5-8 bass player, just fifths, octaves and obviously the same root note than guitars.

De farfalla was so much better than Mendez, tell me Mendez has been done something a little similar to 'To bid you farewell'? nope.

About Godhead's Lament, only on the chorus he does something 'different', again, 1-5-8, on the rest of the song he plays the same than guitars. on Opeth the guitars are complex, but the bass just follows them - at least with Mendez.

On Ghost reveries - the album - he makes some interesting things here and there but any bassist can do so much more on bass than him, listening the Opeth guitars work and the ambience they do.

Akerfeldt did a great job IMO on songs like April Ethereal, When, Amen Corner and Credence. He's not playing just root notes, or u are deaf?

Of course there's a couple of songs where he does some interesting things, but mainly is a 1-5-8 bass player.

to finish this, compare any song from damnation with Sharpen your mind tools from Vintersorg where Steve played or Origin frm Borknagar... that's the way a bassist plays on a progressive acoustic song. Honestly I would like to hear damnation with De Farfalla arrengements.


edit:
windowpane:
1riff :F# 1-5-8-5-1-1-8-5-1-5-8-5
2riff :c# 1-7(down)-1-5-8-5-1
3riff: just root notes / A#1-5-8-/F#1
4riff: the same than guitars
5riff: root notes

in my time of need:
1- root note
2 root note
3 a little fill on Bb minor
4- chorus - mainly root note.

the rest is more or less the same.
To rid the disease, Hope leaves 95% root notes.
The moor =95% root notes
Benighted= root notes, etx

Mendez doesn't need to be flashy and all over the place to be a good bass player. Not to mention the fact that he can easily replicate the bass lines in the songs that they do play off of Orchid and Morningrise. (ie The Night and the Silent Water, Advent, etc). If he sucked, how could he easily play that material? Maybe he just doesn't want to write flashy things.

As far as April Ethereal and Credence...Mikael follows the guitars in April Ethereal except for the chorus/solo section. Why is that so special?
Check out the video of the new song that they played on the Mellotronen Boat...Mendez is all over the place all throughout the song.

 

[Allfader]

Mendez doesn't need to be flashy and all over the place to be a good bass player. Not to mention the fact that he can easily replicate the bass lines in the songs that they do play off of Orchid and Morningrise. (ie The Night and the Silent Water, Advent, etc). If he sucked, how could he easily play that material? Maybe he just doesn't want to write flashy things.

As far as April Ethereal and Credence...Mikael follows the guitars in April Ethereal except for the chorus/solo section. Why is that so special?
Check out the video of the new song that they played on the Mellotronen Boat...Mendez is all over the place all throughout the song.

I'm not saying he's uncapable to play bass, but a bassist without creativity is a sucker bassist and for me, Mendez is uncreative.

Mikael Follows the guitars except for the chorus/solo section? that's Mendez does on his songs.

oh, and BTW, did u checked that Vintersorg song? Steve is not flashy, but the bass lines through all the song are great.

 

[Travis]

I try to avoid to avoid saying that there is "less room for bass in death metal," because that really isn't the case. Finding a place is much more difficult than in certain other genres, but it's possible - it just takes a more creative, seasoned player to do so. In other forms of rock, or certain styles of jazz (not necessarily bebop in this case), there can be commonly slower tempos and less going on with the instruments - think of old Sabbath, for example. This can make it much easier for the bass player to lay down a groove, or even just to pick out a part and go "oh, that sounds like a good spot for a fill." Then you have death metal bands where the drummer's doing blasts for half the song and the guitar player is constantly speedpicking and already playing pretty rhythmically, and all of a sudden the bass player's life has gotten much harder and it becomes so much easier to just fall into the habit of following the guitar everywhere. Cryptopsy's None so Vile comes to mind here. But it can't be impossible, because you listen to Gorguts' The Erosion of Sanity, Suffocation's Pierced from Within, or even Steve's very own The Gathering - all of which fit the above mentioned description - and the respective bass players are all doing very creative things.

I used to be pretty guilty of following the guitar too much myself when I was starting out. It's often said that "the bass is a rhythm instrument", which I always interpreted as "the bass should stick to root notes," which of course, can get boring. Only recently have I really come to realize - hanging out with Derek Boyer and seeing Victor Wooten live kinda helped - that really, it means that you should be paying attention to the drums more. When you're at band practice, or even sitting at home figuring out a song you've been listening to by ear (which you should do often...!), listen closely to what the drummer is doing and how it relates to what else is going on in the song - or, how a certain part of the song would sound differently if the drum beat was different. Once I realized this, my playing has been improving drastically, and is even reflected in older TS songs vs new ones we're writing. If you're stumped and don't know what to play, try to think of your strategy as following the drummer rather than the guitar. Not only will you learn more about groove and pocket but it will also teach you about things like song structure, all of which will help you become a great bass player...!

 

[Allfader]

...it means that you should be paying attention to the drums more...

As far I know, drums and bass does the melodic/rhythm base on any song and of course for the guitar's playing. Both instruments must be as one when one is playing. I don't follow guitars, they must to follow me and when the songs requires, I follow them to make strong that guitar melody, but always I do something different. From my point of view, bass and drums are the referent for guitars and not the inverse thing.

That is the only bad thing about metal: is a guitar driven style. While on another styles the bass and drums are the main instruments, on metal is the guitar and that can be bad for an 'openminded' bassist if the guitarists don't.

 

[BrutalExorcist]

I have played with guitars who were root-note-follow-me autocrats in the past. One even assumed I knew no music theory because I wasn't playing the roots of chords. They exist, but the way I see it these days, looking for bands these days is a buyer's market for bassists. Look hard enough, and you'll find a band who "unleashes" your full capabilities.

Two of my favorite bassists to listen to in terms of "lead bass" besides HoD are Steve Harris of Maiden, and though it's not metal, Matt Freeman of Rancid. Yes, Rancid is an annoying band if you're used to listening to mostly metal, but it's worth listening to for Matt's lines. Harris... no explanation needed. Matt Freeman, outside of the obvious "Maxwell Murder" solo, seems to take a large influence from the straight ahead jazz bassists of yesteryear and uses walking bass lines as opposed to the root quarter lines many other punk bassists use. Those are just some guys off the top of my head who have helped me break out of the guitarist's shadow without becoming a one-man show, and there are many more out there. Point is though, listen to great bassists to learn the art of great bass playing, and disregard the genre. Listen to some great upright bassists too. Just because they play a somewhat different instrument doesn't mean the theory isn't transferrable.

Also, don't be afraid to lend your bass services to a variety of genres if it means you can establish yourself as a competent bassist who can exist outside of the guitarists' shadows in the eyes of prospective bands, and build your experience with different techniques and approaches to bass. Actually, I was approached by an alt-rock band a few months ago to play bass for them. I told them that I wasn't looking to do the root-quarter game, and they were still willing to try me out. I'm actually still with that band, and at least in my own eyes, my bass playing has pushed the band into new territories where other similar bands haven't gone. That should be the main drive of unleashing your full capabilities into the bass lines, not to push yourself over the band, but to push the band itself. I'm finally in a decent metal band alongside that project, which gets two thumbs up from me.

Just some more random thoughts in addition to the advice which has been already posted. Sorry if I stepped on anyone's feet.

 

[Son of Magni]

I try to avoid to avoid saying that there is "less room for bass in death metal," because...

Excellent post

 

[HippieOfDoom]

All these statements are true and well thought out. But we can keep preaching to our own choirs all day. "Practice a lot, play different styles, try to be creative, don't follow the root notes.." All well and good, and work for some, some of the time. But the reason we are talking about this, is it doesn't work. The topic of this thread is "freedom to play", but that is a broad subject. Different styles, different bands, different musicians all demand unique approaches. There are obvious kinds of music where a bassist has more freedom to play than other kinds, for example Son of Magni compared what I play in Sadus to what I play for Dark Hall. I compose for both bands so it's a fair comparison, but there is an obvious difference; and let's call it what it is...one is a form of jazz and one is a form of metal. And therein lies the source of the topic, being a metal bassist.

We can all sit here and read each other's posts and commiserate and share advice, but the bottom line is that no one else cares. No one does "air bass" when they hear their favorite song, you see plenty people doing air guitar, air drumming and even holding an imaginary mic and putting on such an intense face while they squeeze out that favorite vocal line. Guitarists, drummers and singers know this and it is their obligation to keep us down. Worse yet, since the advent of ADATs and on to Protools and the like, the backyard or home studio hacks have still not learned to refine their quest for the ultimate (and over-loud) drum sounds and twenty-tracks of guitar wall square wave mud to pay proper attention to the bass track (singular). How easy to dial up a tight-mic'ed artificial verb'ed drum sound complete with fake kicks (and, uuggghhh, most of the time fake played), and over tracked guitars that hide and smooth over all the inconsistencies, thicken it all up with a mass of low end and compression, and ultimately burying the bass track under audible level [Oh, watch...*MUTE* it's gone...*UNMUTE* it's there... *MUTE* it's gone... *UNMUTE* see, it's in the mix...] bullshit.

Yes the blame is shared by engineers that can't handle the frequencies of bass, and the other musicians that go complete ego in the studio, and by the fans that ultimately support and accept this undersight. But unfortunately, fellow bassbros...it's mostly our fault. Just like the fixed-in-the-computer kick drums make drummer stars, and multi-multi-layering guitars makes guitar heroes...that volume fader keeps your spot in the line up. You deserve the dirt thrown on top of you. If there is nothing there to fight (unfortunately that's the word) for in the mix, there is no reason to hear what you played and no reason to have freedom to play.

When I was growing up listening to music of that day, I gravitated to the bass player because I thought it was the coolest sounding instrument and had the most interesting job in the song. Now it's more like the failed guitarist demoted or the friend who wants to hang out but can't really play as well as the others in the band. And some of the coolest spots in the song for freedom to play for bass was during the guitar solo, now it's not only covered by the second, or rhythm guitar part, but also overdubbed by both guitarists like one of them never pulled away to play the wank section. Where's the room? Where is the actual freedom?

We have to make our own space, and most of the time it is dishearteningly unaccepted by others involved. Bass players in metal are like sharks in the regard that we always have to swim against the current to stay alive. I try not to use words all encompassing like "everyone" and "always", because I have been fortunate enough in my career to find others supportive of the bassist role in metal, and for them we do carry on. But unfortunately they are far outnumbered by those who are willing to accept the new standard that there is no point for a bassist to have freedom to play.

This wasn't meant to be a negative rant. But it is a reflection of some of the negativity that wells up inside of me and gives me fire to play on. Negativity towards the norm. I will never give up fighting the norm, and I encourage you to play; create; find space; and make your own freedom to play.
All the time.
SDG

 

[lordcthulhu]

No one does "air bass" when they hear their favorite song

I do it ALL THE TIME, and especially to your songs, Steve! A particular favourite is the start of Scariot's "Redesign Fear". Nice to see your thoughts on this dude, I think this is a great thread, thanks SonofMagni

 

[lordcthulhu]

Steve, as I have just done so on the Borknagar forum (where I got a positive response), I must convince you to do another album with Asgeir Mickelson in the future, OK?

Pity. Oh well, you'll have to start a NEW project with Steve DiGiorgio then, alright?

...don't be surprised if that happens...