Gays can't marry in Cali or whatever.

[Thoth-Amon]

I feel I am. My beliefs are part of what shapes the way I see reality. What next?

Actually you don't have to change your beliefs at all... you simply need to recognize that your beliefs and morals should not shape public policy in our SECULAR government. Our government has no right to legislate laws based on the moral opinions of certain groups... what it is supposed to do is legislate laws that protect the life and liberty of its citizens. This is why even though you may not agree with gay marrige you should in principle allow others to make the choice as to whether or not they can do it. Just like there are many things in this country that you undoubtedly find evil or immoral that are legal, yet you have NO RIGHT to make them illegal because your moral views and the moral views or everyone else cannot be made into public policy.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

So you all suggest that I conform to your view?

Interesting that we are reading the book 1984 right now. This is very thought police of you all.

So when Christianity convinces you of something, it's perfectly reasonable and allows you to make an informed, educated decision; but when we make a logical argument which you cannot defend against we're brainwashing you. Awesome.

No one's forcing you to believe anything for fuck's sake. This is a forum, remember? We all get a say. But if you're going to post such clearly illogical arguments as the ones you have here, you should expect people to pretty easily defeat them. That's not us being "thought police". That's you sucking at logic.

 

[AchrisK]

Actually you don't have to change your beliefs at all... you simply need to recognize that your beliefs and morals should not shape public policy in our SECULAR government. Our government has no right to legislate laws based on the moral opinions of certain groups... what it is supposed to do is legislate laws that protect the life and liberty of its citizens. This is why even though you may not agree with gay marrige you should in principle allow others to make the choice as to whether or not they can do it. Just like there are many things in this country that you undoubtedly find evil or immoral that are legal, yet you have NO RIGHT to make them illegal because your moral views and the moral views or everyone else cannot be made into public policy.

So...what should I do? The prop is on the ballot. Should I not vote? Should I vote against my own views?

 

[The Ozzman]

Does this proposition include the banning of civil unions as well?

 

[zabu of nΩd]

So...what should I do? The prop is on the ballot. Should I not vote? Should I vote against my own views?

If your views include imposing your views on other people (which this vote seems to imply), then perhaps you should vote against your views. At this point you seem to be holding onto the belief for no reason other than because you're used to believing it. If you're still not convinced that opposing gay marriage is wrong, then I guess you wouldn't be able to properly vote on it. Generally we should vote on something only if we actually fully understand the issue and have reached a decision on it.

 

[audiophileguy]

Does this proposition include the banning of civil unions as well?

NO

 

[Dak]

I disagree with Christianity and Christian parents who homeschool their children to make sure they don't learn what they don't want them to know.

Any reason for this one? In what way does someone homeschooling affect you? (The rest of what you listed was obvious) Also, what about the non-Christians who homeschool? Or the people who homeschool just because they aren't satisfied with the level of education in public schools and can't afford a good private school?

I am completely against homosexuality, but if I lived in California and forced to vote I would have to vote for allowing gay marriage, since we do have a secular government and my spiritual beliefs can't really enter into this.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

So...what should I do? The prop is on the ballot. Should I not vote? Should I vote against my own views?

like i said... it really shouldn't have anything to do with your 'views' it has to do with our government not being able to legislate morality. if you don't want people to make your morals and beliefs illegal then you should grant others the same luxury. our freedoms in part come about via compromise... since you get the luxury of believing and living the way you feel, others should have that same luxury even if it is the opposite of yours. you don't have to change your views and marriage isn't being 'threatened', you can still uphold your views of marriage anyway you choose.

 

[AchrisK]

So when Christianity convinces you of something, it's perfectly reasonable and allows you to make an informed, educated decision; but when we make a logical argument which you cannot defend against we're brainwashing you. Awesome.

Brainwashing? Who said I thought you were brainwashing me? You think I can't defend against your all-powerful arguments? Just because you are convinced by your arguments, doesn't mean I should be, and I am not. I don't need to defend my views, but it appears that with some of you I have to defend my right to have them.

No one's forcing you to believe anything for fuck's sake. This is a forum, remember? We all get a say. But if you're going to post such clearly illogical arguments as the ones you have here, you should expect people to pretty easily defeat them. That's not us being "thought police". That's you sucking at logic.

I didn't say anyone was, but when I asked for what you all thought I should do, you basically said I should change my thinking to be like yours. You guys are great liberals! I didn't say you were thought police, I said you seem to be advocating conformance to your way of thinking. Obviously you cannot enforce that. But you are tending towards that type of thinking.

I have not once asked any of you to change your views, and I don't feel I should. You only tolerate free speech you agree with. You condemn those who oppose you. You think everyone who doesn't agree with you is a complete idiot.

I disagree that I suck at logic. I actually think I am pretty good at it. But I also don't forget that people come from different ideological places. You guys tend to think that other ideological places are invalid. That is very narrow minded.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Any reason for this one? In what way does someone homeschooling affect you? (The rest of what you listed was obvious)

Homeschooling is terrible, because it keeps the child isolated from the world and thus unable to properly communicate with people and reconcile differences in beliefs, lifestyles, etc. They end up sheltered and ignorant about how the world works. Also, the average parent simply cannot do as good a job at educating their kid as a trained professional can.

I'd say homeschooling probably should not be allowed as an alternative to going to school. It's not true education.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Homeschooling is terrible, because it keeps the child isolated from the world and thus unable to properly communicate with people and reconcile differences in beliefs, lifestyles, etc. They end up sheltered and ignorant about how the world works. Also, the average parent simply cannot do as good a job at educating their kid as a trained professional can.

I'd say homeschooling probably should not be allowed as an alternative to going to school. It's not true education.

pretty much.

 

[AchrisK]

Does this proposition include the banning of civil unions as well?

Not the one in AZ. It was simply a definition.

It was Prop 102

 

[The Ozzman]

While we're at it, let's ban freedom of choice

 

[AchrisK]

If your views include imposing your views on other people (which this vote seems to imply), then perhaps you should vote against your views. At this point you seem to be holding onto the belief for no reason other than because you're used to believing it. If you're still not convinced that opposing gay marriage is wrong, then I guess you wouldn't be able to properly vote on it. Generally we should vote on something only if we actually fully understand the issue and have reached a decision on it.

Sometimes you shouldn't talk.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

I didn't say anyone was, but when I asked for what you all thought I should do, you basically said I should change my thinking to be like yours. You guys are great liberals!

Not really... you'll notice I said you DON'T have to change your views. Merely grant others the opportunity to have their own views and morals and don't impose your views on others via making a law out of it.

 

[Evil?]

Ack, what you need to do is get in the frame of mind that a vote for gay marriage does not have to mean you support gay marriage. A vote in favor of gay marriage is a vote in support of equal rights. Surely you can feel good about voting in favor of something that will grant your fellow citizens the rights you freely enjoy. You seem morally strong enough to be able to set aside you feelings towards marriage and see the big picture.Morally opposing gay marriage and supporting equal rights do not need to be mutually exclusive. You would not be giving up on your own beliefs, you would simply be allowing others to enjoy what they beleive they have the right to. I think you have it in you to do the right thing.

 

[AchrisK]

like i said... it really shouldn't have anything to do with your 'views' it has to do with our government not being able to legislate morality. if you don't want people to make your morals and beliefs illegal then you should grant others the same luxury. our freedoms in part come about via compromise... since you get the luxury of believing and living the way you feel, others should have that same luxury even if it is the opposite of yours. you don't have to change your views and marriage isn't being 'threatened', you can still uphold your views of marriage anyway you choose.

Man, you need to give these guys a class on discussing stuff. Though I do see it as somewhat threatening to marriage, your other points are very good.

 

[Dak]

Homeschooling is terrible, because it keeps the child isolated from the world and thus unable to properly communicate with people and reconcile differences in beliefs, lifestyles, etc. They end up sheltered and ignorant about how the world works. Also, the average parent simply cannot do as good a job at educating their kid as a trained professional can.

I'd say homeschooling probably should not be allowed as an alternative to going to school. It's not true education.

Then why do homeschooled students regularly out-test public and private school students on average?

I won't say that some don't wind up isolated, but most of the homeschooling families I knew went through great pains to make sure their children were enrolled in plenty of extracurricular activites through the YMCA or whatever, to prevent isolation.

Edit: Your sounding extremely intolerant on this subject

 

[audiophileguy]

Homeschooling is terrible, because it keeps the child isolated from the world and thus unable to properly communicate with people and reconcile differences in beliefs, lifestyles, etc. They end up sheltered and ignorant about how the world works. Also, the average parent simply cannot do as good a job at educating their kid as a trained professional can.

I'd say homeschooling probably should not be allowed as an alternative to going to school. It's not true education.

 

[AchrisK]

Not really... you'll notice I said you DON'T have to change your views. Merely grant others the opportunity to have their own views and morals and don't impose your views on others via making a law out of it.

I did notice this from you. I also must say that vihris-gari also said "That's up to you of course...", but then went on to tell me how dumb my views are. That's ok, though.