GENE SIMMONS of KISS: "The record industry is dead."

[...AndTimeBegan]

I agree that downloading is wrong, BTW. We should only listen to music under conditions the artist and the label set, within reasonable limits(telling us we can't put our songs on an Ipod is BS).

I'm just disputing the argument that it's hurting artists. It's like saying that VCRs hurt movie theaters, which is why the whole thing went to the Supreme Court in the 80s.

A person who downloads something and sends it to their friends creates potential customers. You may think it's wrong because it's without the artist's consent, and I agree with you, but there are benefits to it.

And these artists who made their name 99% because of the internet(which includes most metal artists today) need to get over it. You can't take advantage of all the good the internet does for your career while complaining that very same internet is destroying your career. The internet is what it is. The technology that makes it so much easier to reach the masses without having to get on a major label also can be used to steal your shit. It's a double-edged sword.

Besides, there's a very easy solution. Stop sending out the fucking promos! Those are what gets your album on the torrent sites two months before it comes out! Frontiers releases almost never end up on torrent sites until weeks after their release date, by which time most of the people who wanted the album bought it. I don't know for a fact that Frontiers doesn't send out promos, but I know that my company doesn't get them, and we get promos from everyone else.

I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with your first post and I pretty much gave my PC an ovation when I read it. However I disagree with (most) all of this ( plz don't hurt meh).


As long as the internet remains a public medium, nah, artist/label consent honestly doesn't matter anymore at this point. For better or for worse, information is now made public and easily accessible thanks to the internet. The LAWS might say that artist consent should matter, but we live in a country where laws can be amended. If you want to put your music out to the public, the internet will MAKE it more public than you can ever imagine and that's just tough luck. I think that the new business model should embrace this and offer more incentives to buy music such as lower CD prices, free T shirts with the cost of a CD (and before people start bitching about how this wouldn't be fair since it still costs money to print T shirts... so what? Bands are already printing T shirts and labels are printing CDs, grow a pair and offer them both as the new standard for a fair price..), etc. It's not really that hard.

 

[P-roggy]

Still a lot of Your favourite bands will dissapear eventually since the majority thinks it's ok to download albums illegally from P2P sites. Sad to read all comments "for" illegal downloading.

You don't need to listen to a "whole" album to figure out if it's worth buying!! How did you do before internet? Or maybe you weren't born then...?

 

[dcowboys311]

Still a lot of Your favourite bands will dissapear eventually since the majority thinks it's ok to download albums illegally from P2P sites. Sad to read all comments "for" illegal downloading.

You don't need to listen to a "whole" album to figure out if it's worth buying!! How did you do before internet? Or maybe you weren't born then...?

No...they won't. Most of my favorite bands wouldn't have 1/4 of the fanbase that they have now if it weren't for file-sharing.

 

[P-roggy]

No...they won't. Most of my favorite bands wouldn't have 1/4 of the fanbase that they have now if it weren't for file-sharing.

They will indeed dissapear no matter if you found them through illegal downloading!! Haven't you read my posts further up in this thread? If it was "for free" to distrubute, record albums, press t-shirts and merchandise, press albums, send them out to the world, paying for the artwork, distributing songfiles then there would be no problem but, well...I guess you missed the point totally. The thing is that recordsales really have suffered because of this no matter what you say.
The thing is, the promotion that comes out ´cause of illegal downloading is fantastic indeed but, the fact of the matter is that the "MAJORITY" who downloads doesn't buy the albums they download even if they like/love the album(s). THAT's the problem and that's what has caused that recordlabels don't sell enough albums anymore to pay the bands descent advantages to record sessions, tour organizing etc etc etc etc etc etc.

 

[dcowboys311]

They will indeed dissapear no matter if you found them through illegal downloading!! Haven't you read my posts further up in this thread? If it was "for free" to distrubute, record albums, press t-shirts and merchandise, press albums, send them out to the world, paying for the artwork, distributing songfiles then there would be no problem but, well...I guess you missed the point totally. The thing is that recordsales really have suffered because of this no matter what you say.

The artists don't sell as many albums, but they more than make up for that through increased concert and merch sales. It's not possible to download a concert experience or a t-shirt. Nobody is saying that record sales haven't suffered. Record sales, however, give back very little to the artist.

 

[Creeps]

If you can't decide to buy an album after being able to preview the majority of it online then you're only downloading to avoid shelling out the cash.

• Web stores (usually 30 second clips of entire album)
• Myspace (usually 4+ full length tracks)
• band members myspace (maybe 1-2 from current project)
• record label's site (1-3 full tracks with usually 1 free download)
• band's official site (longer previews of entire album if not full album streaming)
• band member's official site (same as above but usually throughout their career)
• festival web sites (like the one here - full songs or previews)
• post on forums for opinions and comparisons

If you take the time to look anywhere else but a torrent site, you can find out if it's worth your hard-earned money.

When you look at all the legal options on this monster called the internet and agree that piracy is illegal (which it is) then you have NO REASON to download an album illegally and hide behind "I just needed to hear what it sounds like". If you're a pirate then just say so... arg!

 

[edgeofthorns]

A real job

Not saying it's entirely bad for a band to enjoy financial benefits from being in a band but when its more than the passion of writing the music, fuck em :O

RMS, I declare you the official ProgPower Forum Passion Monitor. You seem to be an expert in mind reading as well.

~Brian~

 

[P-roggy]

The artists don't sell as many albums, but they more than make up for that through increased concert and merch sales. It's not possible to download a concert experience or a t-shirt. Nobody is saying that record sales haven't suffered. Record sales, however, give back very little to the artist.

You are wrong there as well. Even the live scene suffers and like I posted further up bands many times have to "pay" for doing a liveshows instead of "getting paid" for it. The merch sales does definietly not sell enough to make up for it either.

 

[dcowboys311]

You are wrong there as well. Even the live scene suffers and like I posted further up bands many times have to "pay" for doing a liveshows instead of "getting paid" for it. The merch sales does definietly not sell enough to make up for it either.

Paying to play is nothing new. It's been going on since before the creation of P2P technology so is really pretty irrelevant to this discussion. Just how does the live scene suffer though? The only possible thing I can think of is that a lot of promoters use Soundscan numbers to route their tours, but just how many of the headlining metal bands would have even had the numbers to headline a tour if people hadn't used file sharing to discover them?

 

[Cheiron]

Gene is blowing smoke and he knows it. He's not rich due to album sales. He's rich due to people listening to his music, buying concert tickets, buying merchandise, and all the other business ventures he's become involved in.

There's an obvious business case from Kiss's standpoint. Investment to make album by Kiss. $1 million dollars. Profit per album sold for Kiss (under total self financing) $5. Albums needed to break even = 200,000. Number of albums sold by top artists last year = well well over 200,000.

The only reason to not make an album is that if it sucks it hurts their ability to continue to make lucrative money off the Kiss 'brand', and any future touring. That and having no musical inspiration right now. These guys put out so many albums combined (group and solo careers), they have no riffs left, no inventive solos left, no great lyrics left.

As for 'The record industry is dead,' tell that to Universal Music Group who saw record profits in 2007.

**NOTE: Nothing in this post has a strong concern for downloading. This is purely about an industry as a whole. Music industry is a summation of a lot more than just album sales.**

 

[P-roggy]

Congrats to Universal Music group then, ....I wonder what bands they are working with...


Nonetheless i agree what you say about the "Kiss brand".

I rest my case in this discussion since it's pointless to continue it....you will learn eventually...remember, I am talking about labels that work with rock/progressive/metal bands or bands no matter genre signed to smaller labels...not Britney Spears or other artists. The biggest labels will probably survive this but, the smaller ones will not...therefore there WILL be bands that You fans here listen to will slowly dissapear.

NP: Last Tribe - Witchdance

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

The thing is, the promotion that comes out ´cause of illegal downloading is fantastic indeed but, the fact of the matter is that the "MAJORITY" who downloads doesn't buy the albums they download even if they like/love the album(s). THAT's the problem and that's what has caused that recordlabels don't sell enough albums anymore to pay the bands descent advantages to record sessions, tour organizing etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Do you have proof of any of this? Do you have any legimitate proof that underground music as a whole is spiraling into the shitter because of illegal downloading? If I can't find any, I doubt you can. Stop acting like you're some kind of prophet-you're not.

 

[Ascension]

Do you have proof of any of this? Do you have any legimitate proof that underground music as a whole is spiraling into the shitter because of illegal downloading?

l say it's spiraling because of the shitty talent & material that's floating out there. It's about time for a flush.

You don't need to listen to a "whole" album to figure out if it's worth buying!! How did you do before internet?

l bought tons of shitty music (see above comment) before the internet. From established bands as well as new bands. Now l have the opportunity to preview an entire cd before purchase. Just like a demo ride in a new car. l would never buy a car without trying it out first. Same principle.

 

[P-roggy]

Do you have proof of any of this? Do you have any legimitate proof that underground music as a whole is spiraling into the shitter because of illegal downloading? If I can't find any, I doubt you can. Stop acting like you're some kind of prophet-you're not.

I'm definietly not a prophet but, I just know things since I'm involved in it and sees the "whole" deal of it and not just "a part of it".

 

[P-roggy]

But as I wrote earlier...if everyone "bought" the albums they like then I guess things would be better but, the problem is that the majority of people don't "buy" albums anymore even if they like the albums they download. Most of you in this forum buys the albums you like I'm sure but, the majority don't.

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

I'm definietly not a prophet but, I just know things since I'm involved in it and sees the "whole" deal of it and not just "a part of it".

You might be involved but that doesn't mean you know anything that you're talking about, which sadly, you don't. Lay off with these huge, baseless predictions please.

But as I wrote earlier...if everyone "bought" the albums they like then I guess things would be better but, the problem is that the majority of people don't "buy" albums anymore even if they like the albums they download. Most of you in this forum buys the albums you like I'm sure but, the majority don't.

Once again... where is your evidence to back this up? Even if sales are not what they were 10 years ago, how can you directly attribute them to illegal downloading when there exists NO SUCH PROOF? (in fact, even some of the claims the RIAA has been making have been debated)

 

[P-roggy]

You might be involved but that doesn't mean you know anything that you're talking about, which sadly, you don't. Lay off with these huge, baseless predictions please.



Once again... where is your evidence to back this up? Even if sales are not what they were 10 years ago, how can you directly attribute them to illegal downloading when there exists NO SUCH PROOF? (in fact, even some of the claims the RIAA has been making have been debated)

How come You know so much about this? Are you in the music biz...in a band maybe...? You seem to know very much how "good" downloading is for bands...

I don't wanna argue for the sake of arguing...I just wanted to let people know that downloading isn't any good for bands that ain't as big as Metallica or acts like that like so many people before me have tried in other threads...
Too bad some people don't see it coming.
I don't have any proof on paper but, I simply just know a few things about this because of some involvement (I do not know everything about it of course).
Well, no use to continue this discussion since I won't change my mind about this and you certainly won't either. We'll see who was right in the end ....maybe no one will be right

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

It doesn't matter where my knowledge comes from. I don't have to be in a band or be in the biz to go on Google and take a few minutes out of my life to do some research. The fact of the matter dude, is that this is not a black and white debate. I personally believe that artists should have the right to choose how they want to sell their product, but I also know that it's just not possible anymore to do this and it might not be such a bad idea to move on and embrace this P2P phenomenon. Is it going to be easy selling a product when people can just download it for free? No. But that's tough shit and the business will have to deal with it (so far it is doing quite fine as is).

 

[P-roggy]

Done some research? Google…that's what have made you so sure of your optimism for illegal downloading? Oh my…
Please contact a few bands instead and ask them to explain what is happening instead since they are the ones "living it"…and why downloading is hurting more than helping…

 

[PyramazeGuitar]

Done some research? Google…that's what have made you so sure of your optimism for illegal downloading? Oh my…
Please contact a few bands instead and ask them to explain what is happening instead since they are the ones "living it"…and why downloading is hurting more than helping…

Hey friends,

Here are some facts coming from a guy in the industry (me):

Illegal downloading hurts the bands and the labels very much. I don't care if you call it "downloading to check it out before a purchase" or simply "downloading to avoid paying for a cd". Fact remains that 1 less album sold = less $$ for the labels -ergo for the bands. Some downloaders have honest intentions, some don't. But trust me that the bands feel this problem very much!

Studio recordings have NOT gotten cheaper over the years. In fact the good producers get more expensive, while the record labels pay smaller advances to their bands because of declining sales. So - if a band is left with a deficit after the album is done, then how many times do you honestly think this will happen before the band says 'goodbye people'....?

Good music comes from passion. But bringing that passion to the masses costs a lot of money. This money has to come from somewhere, and if people decide to not pay for the albums, then we are back at the deficit problem. I've read in multiple places that some people think good music should not be about money -and money should not be the motivator. Well, to me that's the same as saying good work should not be paid for - hello!! That's not how this world works!. The expenses for producing the music remain, and wouldn't you want to get paid for something that you spent a year preparing and producing??? There's still a LOT of work involved in every decent production - passion for the music doesn't change that. Many bands and labels will cease to exist if this problem continues...... Don't kid yourselves - it's already happening. I guess most of you know the cover artist Mattias Noren, who's responsible for so many great metal covers. Well, do you think he closed his business just for fun........? Bands in this genre are taking a financial beating, he's one of the related people feeling it.

Michael Kammeyer