Good Downloading Site With a Monthly Fee? (with bonus discussion included inside!)

[MetalAges]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on many things I guess I'll reply my responses.

Well like I said, the way I see it is that music at its purest is a form of personal artistic expression. Something that can (and perhaps should) exist separately altogether from whether or not someone can make a living (or even earn a few bucks on the side) off it.

I do see your point and where you're coming from. But me (like I am sure many others), as the consumer and as passionate as I am towards this artist, I WANT them to be able to earn my $ by me purchasing their stuff, which leads to them being able to release more stuff down the road and be able to upgrade their equipment or buy themselves a new guitar, etc. By all means if an artist wants to do it for the pure joy, kudos to them. Unfortunately, many do but it never sees the light of day for most of us due to lack of $$ or proper (quality) recording means.

Even if the entire music industry would vanish tomorrow it isn't going to stop talented and driven people from making great music. And people will find new ways to promote, and distribute/sell that music. With the internet that is possible now moreso than ever.

This part I am not so much in disagreement. I didn't intend for my original post to be pro-label or saying that the artists NEED the label. They indeed need to embrace the Internet, but they should see a return on their sales, which they do not from the Russian stuff. It's not fair that we benefit, some Russian company makes $, and the artist gets jack of anything. Many artists will soon start to attempt their own thing, but many can't afford to buy everything they need to do it well enough to warrant fans like us to purchase. Heck I have a hard time getting some bands to pony up $10/month for web hosting much less fund their own recording equipment and CDs!

Producing music on a semi-professional level is also something that is now more easily done than ever before. There are loads of audio editing suites for the PC and Mac that come with features that used to be exclusive to expensive recording/mixing studios. Up until the early 90's there was literally no way for a band to record, mix and then distribute or sell their own music independently and worldwide (not necessarily for free, but at a cost level that is not impossible to deal with for an amateur band). It just couldn't be done. Now you can, and many people do so successfully.

I agree, and also see my above statement. I'm always for a band investing in themselves above all, but many simply can not afford it (or realize that just having awesome equipment/software doesn't mean your stuff will automatically sound great out of the box).

To illustrate, just a few days ago I ordered the new CD by Phil Western (someone loosely affiliated with Skinny Puppy if that means anything to anyone here). It's a CD-R album with handmade packaging limited to 250 copies. You e-mail him directly, ask if he has any copies left, and if he does you Paypal him the money ($15 including shipping anywhere). Is he going to make loads of money this way? Not really, obviously. But then that isn't his goal to begin with. He is getting his music to people that otherwise would never have been able to get their hands on it and all the money made from it goes directly to him. Another example is When Day Descends, a band by forum member YaYo (I don't know if he ever posted on this particular UM forum though). Basically the same thing.

Kudos to them for what they're doing, but personally speaking, I don't know that I would bring myself to pay $15 for a CDR/handmade thing. I may, depending on who it was, but some new band out there it would have to be some amazing material to persuade me. I don't hardly pay $15 for a REAL label release much less CDR releases these days.

Flipside of that is, if they can get 250 people to do it they probably made more money than they would get from selling 2000 copies on a label!

Being able to actually live off your music is a luxury at best and I'm not even sure it's a healthy one.

I'll ignore the part of your post where you had a lapse of sanity....

And it often involves having to make artistic concessions at one point or another to be able to maintain that lifestyle. No matter how much artistic integrity you have, if you get used to the music being your actual livelihood you can't convince me that it at no point affects your approach to writing and producing music.

Hmmm, again, I see where you're coming from. I don't know that I agree. Some artists I could see with this (I'm sure its popped into the heeads of Metallica, Megadeth, Def Leppard....) but then I look at bands like Stratovarius, Gamma Ray, Iced Earth, Nevermore, Dream Theater...even if these guys were making more $ I don't see them changing. To be honest, if bands were making enough to live from with their music, consistently, they'd almost be cuckoo to change too much you know? It's when band revenue starts to decline that they have to decide what to do, forge ahead or change with the times. The fans decide how that plays out (purchase or not).

So is this a dire situation? Maybe for the people you talk to, people working in the industry and for bands that are used to being able to comfortably live off their music (since by doing so they rely directly on the wealth of the labels that are currently going under).

Harsh brother man, harsh! We have to also remember that for the most part, these labels fund and help these bands to go on tour, skip across to another country and play other places (Visas alone cost quite a bit, thousands), book their ads in print and online (again, thousands if done in mass). I guess this is all fine and dandy if we are content just getting CDs from a band online and/or seeing them semi-local to wherever we may live.

But for music lovers, not really.

I still will never understand statements like this. Too many folks (not saying you) think somehow they are entitled to free music from bands. In one way or another we will be affected by there being no labels in the picture.

The only reason why the situation in the music industry is constantly portrayed as disastrous is because it is constantly presupposed that the status quo must be maintained (coincidentally this is always done by industry people and almost never by music fans), and yet reality dictates that it simply can't be.

Yeah, coming from the BIG label side I agree.

All in all, the whole point of and original intention of my post is, we shouldn't expect free or almost free music from the bands we love. If bands themselves want to do that, hey I'm all for it! However, bands deserve to earn a few bucks from us, so that they can fund themselves and build a future for themselves. If they release something themselves, they've already spent hundreds if not thousands of hours writing, tweaking, recording, producing, etc. the music we love. Our $$ shouldn't go to some company that makes $$ from the artist, but the artist never receives their fair share (key word on fair).

 

[ShredHeadJHJ]

Yes, god forbid we actually turn a thread into a discussion instead of just listing websites.

What I meant was I'd rather discuss anything but a debate on downloading. I see it too damn much on the internets. Starting other discussions in threads is perfectly fine... Just not that.

Ha, I just saw the name change MA, funny shit

 

[The Heartbreak Kid]

I would never write my credit card info on a page which url ends with *.ru.

 

[CAIRATH]

What I meant was I'd rather discuss anything but a debate on downloading. I see it too damn much on the internets. Starting other discussions in threads is perfectly fine... Just not that.

Surprisingly this forum does not revolve around what you do and do not want to discuss, mister October 2007. A discussion about music downloading in a thread about... music downloading doesn't seem very out of place to me (not to mention that my post was hardly just about music downloading, but whatever). If it doesn't interest you then read one of the many other exciting threads this forum has to offer.

Deron, I will reply in a bit. Though from skimming through your post I get the feeling you misunderstand or misinterpret some of my points.

 

[MetalAges]

Deron, I will reply in a bit. Though from skimming through your post I get the feeling you misunderstand or misinterpret some of my points.

That's impossible, this is the internet!

 

[CAIRATH]

I do see your point and where you're coming from. But me (like I am sure many others), as the consumer and as passionate as I am towards this artist, I WANT them to be able to earn my $ by me purchasing their stuff, which leads to them being able to release more stuff down the road and be able to upgrade their equipment or buy themselves a new guitar, etc. By all means if an artist wants to do it for the pure joy, kudos to them. Unfortunately, many do but it never sees the light of day for most of us due to lack of $$ or proper (quality) recording means.

I agree. My point there was not that I don't want people who make music that I enjoy to get any money. I am saying that whether they do or not ultimately doesn't affect whether music will be made or not. As I said, music existed well before music was even a business. So my point was not "no one should pay for music", but rather "even if no one paid for music, music would still be made". It always will be.

And as I illustrated with my example I gladly pay artists for their work, preferably if I know the money is going directly to them (like in my example) rather than first to a retailer, then to a distributor, then to a record label, then to a management office all of whom skim some off the top (some more than others, the label and retailers being the main culprits there) before the artist gets a little.

This part I am not so much in disagreement. I didn't intend for my original post to be pro-label or saying that the artists NEED the label. They indeed need to embrace the Internet, but they should see a return on their sales, which they do not from the Russian stuff. It's not fair that we benefit, some Russian company makes $, and the artist gets jack of anything. Many artists will soon start to attempt their own thing, but many can't afford to buy everything they need to do it well enough to warrant fans like us to purchase. Heck I have a hard time getting some bands to pony up $10/month for web hosting much less fund their own recording equipment and CDs!

Agreed. Like I said as well, the Russian sites are scams. Paying for them is a complete waste of money unless you want to fuel the Russian economy or something. When I am talking about the music industry, or bands individually, embracing the internet I obviously mean in a way that benefits them, but also a way that benefits their fans (which means not charging complete ripoff prices for downloading a file). Furthermore I also meant using the internet to sell and promote your album the traditional way. It doesn't necessarily need to be about digital downloads. Nowadays it takes literally nothing to set up your own website with a webstore where you could sell your band's CD(-R)s and merchandise yourself without much involvement from anyone else. The internet gives you a potentially worldwide audience to cater to and the ability to interact with them directly (which fans also tend to enjoy, I personally like sending an e-mail to the artist I'm buying from to order their CD).

Kudos to them for what they're doing, but personally speaking, I don't know that I would bring myself to pay $15 for a CDR/handmade thing. I may, depending on who it was, but some new band out there it would have to be some amazing material to persuade me. I don't hardly pay $15 for a REAL label release much less CDR releases these days.

They are professional looking CD-Rs by the way. It's not like you get a jewelcase with the Phillips cardboard sheet inthere or something. It looks entirely like a normal CD with label on top and booklet and all. Just when you look at the underside of the disc you can see it's not a pressed CD. Me, I'd much rather buy something like this that was handmade by the artist than any CD at a store. Obviously you only do this for artists you actually have some affinity for. But it feels good to send someone whose music you appreciate 15 bucks and know that it is their 15 bucks. Rather than spending $15 on a CD and knowing that the artist in question will see maybe 50 cents of that.

These were just examples anyway. What I wanted to illustrate is that it is possible for artists to sell their music directly to their fans and obviously the same can be done with properly pressed CDs (Phil Western's other albums are all properly pressed discs infact). It results in more money per sold album for the artist (by cutting out several middle men), a more direct connection with the fans and as a result more satisfaction from buying something when you know that the majority of the money goes where it should go, which is to the artist who created the music rather than the people who distributed, marketed and sold it (which is where the bulk of the money on many a store-bought CD goes to).

I'll ignore the part of your post where you had a lapse of sanity....

Hmmm, again, I see where you're coming from. I don't know that I agree. Some artists I could see with this (I'm sure its popped into the heeads of Metallica, Megadeth, Def Leppard....) but then I look at bands like Stratovarius, Gamma Ray, Iced Earth, Nevermore, Dream Theater...even if these guys were making more $ I don't see them changing. To be honest, if bands were making enough to live from with their music, consistently, they'd almost be cuckoo to change too much you know? It's when band revenue starts to decline that they have to decide what to do, forge ahead or change with the times. The fans decide how that plays out (purchase or not).

It's kind of a grey area. Obviously the whole subject is so um... subjective that it's kind of difficult to argue. I'm just going by imagining how I would feel if the band I was in was my livelihood and not just my hobby. I just think it changes the way you approach things and it adds a certain pressure. If it's your hobby it's easy to just do whatever the hell you want because who cares, you know. But if you rely on your album selling to get those royalties and retain your recording contract with your label in order to be able to pay your mortgage and put your kid through school... I think you will become more conservative. At the very least there is the danger/potential of that happening, I'm sure we can atleast agree on that.

My point though, by saying that living off your music is a luxury, is that it is not necessary for good bands to exist. The vast majority of the bands that are regularly discussed on the GMD/Recommendations forum are bands that are unable to live off of their music. The people in the band have jobs and the music is what they do in their sparetime and maybe they earn a few extra bucks by doing so. Yet they continue to create music. Making a living off your music is undoubtedly something that many bands would like to do, but it automatically also means that you start walking the fine line between creating art and creating a consumer product and the more you lean towards the latter, the more the actual music is going to suffer. So basically what I'm saying is that I'm not convinced it is desirable (but also admit it is a grey area), but I am definitely convinced that it is not necessary (also again referring to my first paragraph).

Harsh brother man, harsh! We have to also remember that for the most part, these labels fund and help these bands to go on tour, skip across to another country and play other places (Visas alone cost quite a bit, thousands), book their ads in print and online (again, thousands if done in mass). I guess this is all fine and dandy if we are content just getting CDs from a band online and/or seeing them semi-local to wherever we may live.

I know it's harsh, but it is also reality. I'm not saying it's great that people working at record labels are losing their jobs (especially for indie labels) but the current business model is becoming obsolete. Record labels need to reinvent themselves and find new ways to generate revenue. The industry as a whole needs to stop thinking about how great things used to be focus on what is actually happening now. The only reason why so many labels are doing so poorly is because they are not doing this. The music industry has seen a steady decline in sales since the late 90's (Napster) and yet almost 9 years later very little has changed, they're still trying to hammer that square peg into the round hole and are still trying to force their own ideas onto their customers instead of addressing the obvious consumer demand for affordable music with no strings attached (which is not an unreasonable demand at all I think, it's just one that the music industry is not used to having to fulfill).

I still will never understand statements like this. Too many folks (not saying you) think somehow they are entitled to free music from bands. In one way or another we will be affected by there being no labels in the picture.

Again, I never implied music should be free or that anyone is entitled to such a thing. Yes, if labels were to go away there would be a noticable impact. But that impact would not be that there is no more music. Nothing that could possibly happen to the "music business" will ever result in no more music being made. I cannot stress that enough. That is all I mean when I say as a music lover things like this don't worry me. One way or another, there will always be music for us to enjoy. Free or otherwise. The only effect that labels will have in the end is on whether or not bands are able to tour (something I personally care little about since I never go to concerts, but I can imagine for some that might be a concern). The thought of music somehow being dependant on corporate funding, "the music business" and record labels in order to exist would be an extremely depressing one. Luckily that isn't true at all.

I also never said there should be no labels. What am I saying is that the music business in its current form is dying. And something will take its place. And whatever that is, the internet is going to play a large role in it. Labels need to find new ways to make revenue, and they need to find new responsibilities to occupy themselves with.

All in all, the whole point of and original intention of my post is, we shouldn't expect free or almost free music from the bands we love. If bands themselves want to do that, hey I'm all for it! However, bands deserve to earn a few bucks from us, so that they can fund themselves and build a future for themselves. If they release something themselves, they've already spent hundreds if not thousands of hours writing, tweaking, recording, producing, etc. the music we love. Our $$ shouldn't go to some company that makes $$ from the artist, but the artist never receives their fair share (key word on fair).

I completely agree with all of this and don't think I ever claimed otherwise (again, I was the first to call that Russian site a scam in this thread). I have a 500+ CD collection so I'm not at all one of those "I should be able to get all the music I want for free" kind of people. I do also download a lot and mostly to try stuff out before I buy it (which given CD prices nowadays is not an unreasonable or immoral thing to do in my opinion).

Since this turned into a long ramble (I've been writing on and off while doing other stuff which caused me to lose track a bit), here's a bullet point list that sums up my feelings pretty much:

• Music will always be made regardless of whether there is money to be made from it and regardless of whether artists can make a living off of it
• Music will always be made regardless of whether there is a "music business" or record labels behind it
• Labels in their current form are becoming obsolete and the music industry as a whole is clinging on to a business and pricing model that no longer realistic and was never fair to begin with
• Labels and bands need to embrace new avenues like the internet and find new ways to promote, distribute/sell their music to address the consumer demand that has been present for the past 9 years (cheap, easily accessible music with no strings attached) and which is currently being addressed by illegal alternatives instead
• Any money made on music should largely go to the artist who created it, not to the people who package, distribute and sell it (ties into the previous point). For instance by establishing a more direct link between the artists and the fans (something which fans also tend to enjoy)

And that, is why as a music lover I am not concerned. The industry is in a bad way right now and it will probably get worse before it gets better if the people in it continue stubbornly pining for the good ol' days. But regardless of what happens there will always be music for me to enjoy in some form or another.

 

[Valerie]

I have edited this thread to remove the Russian plugs. I always find subjects like this to put me in a grey area of letting people share links etc. but also this site is made to help and support bands. When you buy from those Russian sites, sure it saves you some money, and you get your tunes, but the artists and labels who put that stuff out make $0, nada, zilch. The "royalties" (yes in quotes) are little to none and go to the Russian royalty company and never make it back to the artists.

The more you buy from places like that, the less albums we're going to be seeing from artists and the less they make to put this stuff out for us.

Sometimes I wish I could share certain info that comes to me from labels/bands but sadly can't. That said, soon you will be seeing some big changes coming, labels closing/consolidating, cutting WAY back (in signing/money/staff), changing the number of bands they can sign/market, you name it. It's getting worse and worse for artists, and sad to say to make a living from music any more is few and far between. Sure, many do it out of love, but to see pennies returned for all that time vested is sad.

My post shouldn't have been deleted because it didn't contain anything illegal. You might as well not allow people to post youtube videos of live concert footage, since the artist isn't making any money off of them.

 

[NinjaGeek]

Don't want to get too heavily into this discussion, but just to throw this out there, the independent short film industry gets thousands of films a year, and most of the time these are people paying $6000+ to get their film made, and thousands more just to get people to watch it, yet still it's growing more and more, with little hope of being able to make any kind of profit at all.

I don't want to see the music industry become this way, but I don't think it will, because I'm pretty sure there's a much bigger market for independent music than independent films, probably because music has way more replayability and because it's cheaper to produce amazing music than it is to produce an amazing film.

My point is just that music will most definitely be thriving no matter what, but I would like to see artists being able to make enough to be able to put all their time into making music, but not so much that you've got millions of people putting together cookie cutter rock bands in an attempt to become the next big hit.

 

[MetalAges]

My post shouldn't have been deleted because it didn't contain anything illegal. You might as well not allow people to post youtube videos of live concert footage, since the artist isn't making any money off of them.

Vallllll, come on now. I clearly said the Russian link was deleted because they charge for downloading albums, but none of the money goes to the labels or more importantly the artists. It's a huge scam that many buy from not realizing that the Russian company is pocketing 95+% of your money without any artist consideration whatsoever.

 

[Koude Haat]

Vallllll, come on now. I clearly said the Russian link was deleted because they charge for downloading albums, but none of the money goes to the labels or more importantly the artists. It's a huge scam that many buy from not realizing that the Russian company is pocketing 95+% of your money without any artist consideration whatsoever.

You also deleted mine. Slsk isn't Russian and the program is completely legal.

 

[Valerie]

Vallllll, come on now. I clearly said the Russian link was deleted because they charge for downloading albums, but none of the money goes to the labels or more importantly the artists. It's a huge scam that many buy from not realizing that the Russian company is pocketing 95+% of your money without any artist consideration whatsoever.

How do you know? That site made me completely trust them because it looks nice and spiffy!

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I'd just like to mention about CDr's that they are much cheaper to produce because they (kinda like tapes) stop working after a certain amount of time.

Also, phr33k is right. SLSK does not take responsibility for what its users do. If you kill Soulseek, you might as well kill IRC and anything that includes chat and the capability to share files at all (believe it or not some artists want to share their music for free!)

 

[CAIRATH]

How long CD-Rs last depends entirely on the quality of the media and how you handle them. I tend to assume that people who sell their music in CD-R format have atleast bothered to get decent quality media that can last a decade or so with proper care. But obviously you never know. I don't actually use the physical discs I buy for much of anything though since I rip them to high quality mp3 upon receiving them. And especially with CD-Rs, the less you handle them (and expose them to ultraviolet radiation) the better.

 

[ShredHeadJHJ]

Music will always be made regardless of whether there is money to be made from it and regardless of whether artists can make a living off of it

Well, that's only technically. Lets say if an artist can't make ANY money from his music he will likely not be able to make any music for us, even if he has strong drive to create art. His product will not get promoted. Don't forget it takes money to make money & it costs money to do every thing in the music business from buying guitar strings to producing an album & funding a tour.

[*]Labels and bands need to embrace new avenues like the internet and find new ways to promote, distribute/sell their music to address the consumer demand that has been present for the past 9 years (cheap, easily accessible music with no strings attached) and which is currently being addressed by illegal alternatives instead
[*]Any money made on music should largely go to the artist who created it, not to the people who package, distribute and sell it (ties into the previous point). For instance by establishing a more direct link between the artists and the fans (something which fans also tend to enjoy)

Very good, I agree with this quite a bit. Record companies capitalize on a band's product in a big way. I also believe that CD price should be lowered so band's will be able to realistically move their product better, faster, & get their name out there.

 

[MetalAges]

By the way, I'd like to mention that I appreciate this thread and the fact that it hasn't turned into a crap fest of insulting each other, even if we have different opinions. Thank you.

Val, check out articles about AllofMP3 and you'll see what I mean when it comes to Russian based sites like the one you had posted.

On SLSK - I thought it was some dopey comment that nobody would get. Didn't realize it was Soulseek so you can repost (and spell it out for dopes like me who aren't acronym hip - it's 4 extra letters man! ).

 

[Valerie]

I read Wikipedia's article on AllOfMP3. Mp3 Search isn't affiliated with anything that AllOfMP3 was, and they're not part of any of the same organizations. MP3 Search is part of the Rightholders Federation for Collective Copyright Management:

The noncommercial partnership Rightholders Federation for Collective Copyright Management of Works Used Interactively (NP FAIR) is an organization established to ensure collective proprietary copyright management and to protect the interests of Authors and other Rightholders whose Works are used interactively over the Internet or via local computer networks.

The royalties collected are distributed and paid to Authors and other Rightholders. To ensure appropriate, fast, and accurate distribution of royalties, Authors and other Rightholders need to register their works.

It also mentions that in late January 2007, they paid 2.2 million roubles to rightholders.

 

[Matt]

So albumbase.com (a huge album sharing site - I mean massive) was recently shut down, and teh interwebz rumors are that it was raided by the FBI.

Luckily I do not partake in the uploadage of files because it's wrong. (obviously)

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Yeah, it got owned. They are stupid...file sharing can't be stopped as long as the internet exists.

 

[unknown]

*lol @ thread title*

 

[Valerie]

*lol @ thread title*

"A one hundred dollar value, yours free!"