Gridless :GASP:

[006]

I see your points, Catharsis (nancies? ) and scorpio....but they would have to be pretty tight without a click for me to say "ok, I think I can swing this" and not use one. I'm not saying it can't be done without a click, but I always incorporate a day before the first tracking day to sit down and set up the project. Usually I have the drummer bring his drums over and set them up, to let them get acclimated to my room. I will also set up the mics in general positions, and will move them the day we start tracking if needed. On the prep day we also sit down and get all the tracks setup in Cubase, all the i/o setup, I'll make notes of what guitar/amp/cab will be used, mics being used for what, etc. The last thing we work on is a tempo map and signatures. It really doesn't take that long and isn't difficult to do. I've only had a couple of bands be negative about it, and the majority of those ended up being glad we did it in the end. The few that were still annoyed by it in the end couldn't deny it made their songs sound better though, they were just being gay trying to be Pink Floyd and talk about this "feel" they keep mentioning. I didn't hear anything wrong with it...

Like I said, you do it your way, I'll do it my way

~006

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

If the band don't practice to a click then we won't record to a click. And in 99% of the time, the bands we record have never so much as looked at a metronome.

Exactly! The other thing too is that you lose that groove if all the sudden they are introduced to this so-called "metronome." Players play too much with the click and don't groove so much.

That being said, I prefer recording to click.

 

[006]

Exactly! The other thing too is that you lose that groove if all the sudden they are introduced to this so-called "metronome." Players play too much with the click and don't groove so much.

This is the BS I was talking about... if they can't groove with a simple time-keeping device then they can't groove at all. All a "groove" is, generally speaking, is a feeling of deviation from a solid timing...which you can still do with a click present. It would be one thing if I were just an engineer and not a musician, but I am a musician first so I completely understand the musical aspects of everyone's arguments against a click. But I have never had a single problem getting my music across when using a click, be it death metal, black metal, blues, raggae, rock, stoner rock, doom, sludge or any other style I've ever ventured into. Styles in bold are all dependent on grooves, sometimes death metal too.

~006

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Ya but if you're not used to a click, it's hard to do. That's why you should practice with a click!

WTF? ¯\(°_o)/¯

 

[AdamWathan]

My old band recorded our album to a click save for one song. That song turned out to have the tightest drum performance and was the only one recorded in one take... I think there are plenty of solid drummers who have no practice playing to a click... I would gladly record without a click and just push the drummer and force out as many takes as possible until something was good enough, fixing minor hits if there are problems. In the OP's position, I would definitely go no click, it's a hardcore band, the music is simple and if they are well rehearsed then you don't need a click. My old drummer used to concentrate so much on being in time with the click when recording that he'd make mistakes all over the place trying to speed up or slow down to catch up to where the click was. He has a fantastic sense of timing and plays his parts tighter than any drummer I've ever played with but he just had no practice playing to a click, that's just the way it is.

 

[006]

¯\(°_o)/¯ Point taken.

haha.

 

[Force666]

Genius isn't saying that they "can't", he's saying that they "won't". If they haven't practiced (i.e. learned) how to groove to a click, they will focus on it too much and try and play mechanically.

 

[coldthrn]

Ok I think this sums everything up.. back to the original questions.
(How many of you occasionally not record to a grid?) Looks like not allot of you do. ( What do you think about this technique and have you ever used it satisfactorily? ) Seems like most of you haven't used it satisfactorily. (Do you think you can get as tight with out one?) Depends on the band.

I believe growth comes out of getting out of your comfort zone and learning to be proficient with or without the grid and not have a "crutch" to lean on. On that same note, I'm more interested in my growth than the bands growth hence no click for them. By no means would I do this if this was extremely technical death metal. This is just an experiment for me to clean up my musical productions skills and see how the band responds.
I have recorded without a click back in the ADAT / DA88 days but on the advent of DAWs I have be come comfortable with clicks. (With clicks = proficiency for editing, Without clicks = proficiency for the band.) That stated, it depends on the band if they are proficient with a click, cool best of both worlds. On occasion I have spent 12 or more hours trying to edit and get a drum track tight for one song with a click. My thought process is if we can record scratch guitar and the drummer playing together and get 5 takes or so of the same song one of those are going to be tight. The drummer dose not have to fight the click, we spend about 30 min per song and we are done.
I dont know how this will work out but Ill keep you posted, and post the results once It's done.

Good post guys!

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

Genius isn't saying that they "can't", he's saying that they "won't". If they haven't practiced (i.e. learned) how to groove to a click, they will focus on it too much and try and play mechanically.

Right, thank you for clarifying.

006, don't mess with ¯\(°_o)/¯, you will lose every argument

 

[CatharsisStudios]

haha chris what i would do if i had the chance. and i've noticed this works Awesome for drummers that don't play to a click. have the guitarist and the drummer in the same room, run an amp simish for the drummer and let them jam for a few to get really tight and once you noticed they start getting tight try recording it. i usually put a count off though. and it works haha but what is the reason they don't use a click iam really interested

 

[coldthrn]

No its not them, they dont care if they spend all day to a click. Im just experimenting on a different production style. It will probably turn to a sloppy mess, and they know this, however they are willing for me to experiment and that is the chance they take. Ahhh, how I love to go against the grain.

DEFIANCE!

 

[seditz740novaprospect]

I see your points, Catharsis (nancies? ) and scorpio....but they would have to be pretty tight without a click for me to say "ok, I think I can swing this" and not use one. I'm not saying it can't be done without a click, but I always incorporate a day before the first tracking day to sit down and set up the project. Usually I have the drummer bring his drums over and set them up, to let them get acclimated to my room. I will also set up the mics in general positions, and will move them the day we start tracking if needed. On the prep day we also sit down and get all the tracks setup in Cubase, all the i/o setup, I'll make notes of what guitar/amp/cab will be used, mics being used for what, etc. The last thing we work on is a tempo map and signatures. It really doesn't take that long and isn't difficult to do. I've only had a couple of bands be negative about it, and the majority of those ended up being glad we did it in the end. The few that were still annoyed by it in the end couldn't deny it made their songs sound better though, they were just being gay trying to be Pink Floyd and talk about this "feel" they keep mentioning. I didn't hear anything wrong with it...

Like I said, you do it your way, I'll do it my way

~006

we work the same way pretty much, thanks for saving me a shitload of typing !!!



and the hardcore parts where the songs change tempo its not hard to inc that into the click for them and it keeps the feel i wont quantize/sample replace parts if i do not have to. taking time to prepare the tracks is critical during tracking, and vital to a professional sound...

 

[Ermz]

Minus the moron and shit stuff, i agree with this.

I'll give a example, who thinks that Scar Symmetry's "Holographic Universe" could have been that much better if they did not record that to a clicktrack/grid?

There are a lot of things that album would've been better without: Robotic drums, boyband vocals, simplistic riffing, bad solos (by Per's standards), but dropping the click certainly wouldn't have helped a thing. It certainly could have gone without insane drum quantization/sampling.

The click is a benefit to most types of music.

You sort of need to define what you're doing and trying to achieve though. If for some reason the band want something that sounds like a live demo or live jam session (blues, jazz, punk, whatever) then it's either your obligation to oblige, record without a click or tell them to GTFO as you don't do that.

Tempo changes can be mapped into the songs to create a feeling of movement, which in reality is how the songs should be written anyway.

But if you're doing some crazy piano soloist who is all over the place with various tempo changes, or a jazz band who pick up and queue off each other and feed off each other's energy then you need to keep the click away from that shit.

This whole 'click is necessary, everything must be quantized perfect' is just another trend going around in the music industry, and in particular the metal realm. It's partly the result of too many bands coming to the studio unprepared and the engineers going overboard on quantization and control of a recording. The absolute worst thing you can do is take a holier than thou approach with this and think you somehow know best because you think EVERY piece of music in the history of man should be quantized to a click. You may as well sit there sequencing your music on a keyboard if you feel that way.

 

[006]

I agree if it's a jazz band or piano soloist...but I don't record clients like that. It's not some kind of elitist mentality that you are making it out to be. The click makes everything easier, besides the fact that it makes the band sound tighter, cleaner and more professional.

~006

 

[Metaltastic]

bad solos (by Per's standards)

...

While I feel the album is the weakest musically of the three, the solo in Ghost Prototype I is one of his very finest IMO! (up there with "Underneath the Surface" and "Veil of Illusions")

Anyway, good points all, carry on!

 

[scorpio01169]

all i am saying is...if it were MY project then yes a click track....if i were producing a band and funds were coming out of my pocket then yes a click track. but a band that comes in paying me, if they dont want it...then ok you don't have to have it.

 

[coldthrn]

Ok, now that Ive recorded without a click, I say dont do it with bands that are new to the industry! LOL.. It maybe that Im just an old school but bands just dont play as tight as they used too. Ehh I know better next time. In the next month or so I will put the comparisons of the same song, one to click and one without.