guitarplayers AND intonation

[dcb]

i feel, that a lot of guitar players that i record have a hard time
judging on their intonation - a lot of them cant really play a "musical" vibrato (not wide enough,, or just too fast or not in the tempo of the song) -
and some players "bend" strings while fretting a note (without really noticing while they are playing)

does this happen to you often with bands?

im waiting for melodyne dna to solve this problem, but until then :
what do you do in situations like this ?

send the player home ? go go practice ?
do you retrack the parts yourself (when they left the studio)

 

[Machinated]

yeah - this is really annoying.

i'll melodyne stuff thats on single notes, vibrato is hard as there is no quick fix.

 

[Keregioz]

Oh god the vibrato....I'm really surprised that a really simple technique like the vibrato is so rare in the average guitarist. I've only recorded 4-5 guitarists but no one was able to do a decent vibrato. Not to mention a bend with vibrato.
Another big problem I had with those guitarists is that they all tried to play stuff like arpeggios and speed picking without having the skills to do so resulting to an awful sounding series of notes and noise. All the while they were thinking it sounded good of course...

Of all these guitarists only 2 were doing an official recording and I actually had to deal with the problem. For the vibrato I just had them punch in the single notes separately until they got them right.
As far as the arpeggios and speedpicking in one occasion I just sent the guitarist home and told him to write a different solo which he would actually be able to play. Of course I understand that's not always possible, those 2 specific guitarists respected my producing skills and my opinions and I was able to explain them why it was wrong. I imagine most of the time guitarists have much bigger egos and don't take advice that well...

 

[Force666]

Our band has recently fired two guitar players for overuse of horrible vibrato.
It's sooooo fucking annoying.

 

[crazykarl]

I recorded a rock band where the bassist and guitarist were brothers and bent PERFECTLY every time. It sounded awesome, something melodyne couldn't easily achieve. I think Billy Gibbons once said that the mark of a true guitarist is being able to bend to the correct pitch. Unfortunately, bad intonation, especially with lead guitarists, is rampant and often covered up by excessive effects.

 

[Fox Mulder]

If floyd ppl have problems with vibrato give them a fixed bridge.
Much easier FME.

 

[Splat88]

Oh man, player intonation is the biggest thing I notice in a guitar player, and I'm not quite shure what the correct answer is to your question. Some people just do not have the ear to gauge a good tone. I know guys that can absolutely shred their ass off but their intonation is just abysmal; out of tune bends, horrible vibrato, etc. I mean it takes hours per day to get to the speed of some of these guys, but all that practice doesn't get them a good sense of tone. Go figure. I know its a bad cliche at this point, but that's why David Gilmour fucking rules. His intonation is PERFECT!

 

[Fox Mulder]

Oh man, player intonation is the biggest thing I notice in a guitar player, and I'm not quite shure what the correct answer is to your question. Some people just do not have the ear to gauge a good tone. I know guys that can absolutely shred their ass off but their intonation is just abysmal; out of tune bends, horrible vibrato, etc. I mean it takes hours per day to get to the speed of some of these guys, but all that practice doesn't get them a good sense of tone. Go figure. I know its a bad cliche at this point, but that's why David Gilmour fucking rules. His intonation is PERFECT!

Big Fuckin + 1

 

[Harry Hughes]

It's strange, I'm all for sample replacement when it's needed and stuff like that, but a solo, well, I just don't think it's right to put melodyne on it and call it a day ya know?
If someone can't play their lead part, just drop it from the song or re arrange the song so it doesn't need a solo. I just hate people trying to play stuff on a studio recording that's above their abilities, because by the time they get to the live setting, their lack of ability and talent will be glaringly obvious to every single musician in the audience and if they are bad enough even some of the non musicians/audio engineers are gonna hear their level of suck.

I think a lot of people really under estimate the sheer talent of people like Joe Satriani or Guthrie Govan, who not only have the speed thing down to incredible levels, but have a stunningly accurate ear and technique for in tune vibrato and bending. It's one thing to have that speed, it's another entirely to be a real virtuoso who understand technique doesn't stop at speed.

Honestly, I'd just tell them to GTFO and practice and by the time they come back and haven't gotten it right, time to just drop the solo or re arrange the song so it doesn't need a solo.
I'm sure some of you remember Andy Sneap's rant about bands being under rehearsed and the over reliance of fixing stuff in the mix because people just aren't committed enough to practicing. People that play instruments have to learn what they should be.......musicians.
A real musician gets in there and can play his/her shit.
Yeah, fair some people don't have as much time anymore (record label pressure to tour, write and record etc etc) but sometimes it really is just because people are slack, they aren't real musicians and would rather be getting wasted off their tits than putting the love into their craft.

 

[Toni S.]

Our band has recently fired two guitar players for overuse of horrible vibrato.
It's sooooo fucking annoying.

Serves them right!

 

[SickBoy]

Oh god the vibrato....I'm really surprised that a really simple technique like the vibrato is so rare in the average guitarist. I've only recorded 4-5 guitarists but no one was able to do a decent vibrato. Not to mention a bend with vibrato.
Another big problem I had with those guitarists is that they all tried to play stuff like arpeggios and speed picking without having the skills to do so resulting to an awful sounding series of notes and noise. All the while they were thinking it sounded good of course...

You shouldn't be surprised at all... Vibrato and intonation is what sets a good player from one who just had an enormous will to practice and practice...
I'm not saying practice is useless, but most of guitarists (especially teenage ones) tend to noodle on the fretboard and think they're done when finishing their daily guitar gym regimen, and forget there's more to the music than muscles...

Loomis is one example of a very musical player who's at the same time very advanced technically and that's why he's so highly regarded as a player... I've heard very few play at such a virtuosic level and never getting lost in mindless shredding...

Some kids may praise the likes of Herman, Turilli or some other boring headless shredder but it all comes to two things: them either finally quitting the guitar after realizing it was nothing but a teenage thing or learning there's much more than athletics to guitar.

Someone mentioned Gilmour, he's always a perfect example of how much one can achieve musically without advanced techniques and mostly sticking to good ole pentatonics... I always judge a player by the basics - I couldn't care less at how many BPMs he can play some sick arpeggio with tapping if (s)he's inconsistent when playing rhythm and melody parts.... Solos are just a fraction of the song (icing on the cake if you will), while the rhythm always runs through its entirety and I therefore consider it to be much more important and basic to ones playing!

 

[John_C]

+ more than you can possibly imagine

 

[26]

I think Billy Gibbons once said that the mark of a true guitarist is being able to bend to the correct pitch.

wise words. also explains Jeff Beck's popularity ;-)

 

[Notuern]

If we are talking just intonation here, you could temperate the guitars tuning to compensate for the key they are TRYING to play in.

And actually, speaking of temperation, thats one thing i also find annoying with allot guitarists.. no one but me seems to adjust the temperation to their style of playing(Ok, count in Steve Vai & CO there.).
For me, that plays in the same style as Diamond Darrell and George Lynch, i find that tuning both E-strings perfectly, and then making the open e-a, a-d, d-g sound clean, and then i fret the 3rd fret on the B-string(D) and make a compromise so that it sounds fairly clean to both the open G and thin E string.

 

[bibz]

For me, that plays in the same style as Diamond Darrell and George Lynch, i find that tuning both E-strings perfectly, and then making the open e-a, a-d, d-g sound clean, and then i fret the 3rd fret on the B-string(D) and make a compromise so that it sounds fairly clean to both the open G and thin E string.

I end up doing something similar aswell, since so much revolves around the E, I'll sometimes tune to the e's on each string. Basically I tune by ear after getting a fundamental right, for what I'm playing. Intonation can be a bitch!

 

[John_C]

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php as now used by steve vai on all his guitars. avoids the underlying problems of the guitar to some extent, doesn't stop the players sucking

 

[colonel kurtz]

I recorded a rock band where the bassist and guitarist were brothers and bent PERFECTLY every time. It sounded awesome, something melodyne couldn't easily achieve. I think Billy Gibbons once said that the mark of a true guitarist is being able to bend to the correct pitch. Unfortunately, bad intonation, especially with lead guitarists, is rampant and often covered up by excessive effects.

damn i guess i'm better than i thought

i can chug power chords and vibrato/bend like a mofo...and that's about it lol

now what's REAL tough is to bend a note, pick it, and have it be properly in pitch to bend it back down

 

[Notuern]

I end up doing something similar aswell, since so much revolves around the E, I'll sometimes tune to the e's on each string. Basically I tune by ear after getting a fundamental right, for what I'm playing. Intonation can be a bitch!

Tuning all the E's perfectly is great on Buzz Feiten guitars and similar, but otherwise i often feel that the temperation gets too spaced out and "unpleasant".

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php as now used by steve vai on all his guitars. avoids the underlying problems of the guitar to some extent, doesn't stop the players sucking

I know Krona(Crona or what ever the spelling is.), who is getting his own temperation from there(Ive done setups on his guitars.).. and i have to say, its fuckin' impossible to play those guitars.. because the frets are crooked you will always be off when it comes to sliding down to different frets etc.

But yes, it does fix the problems involved with the intonation/temperation of a guitar.. but i still think playing around with tuning and stuff like Buzz Feiten gets better "all round"-results.

 

[Notuern]

now what's REAL tough is to bend a note, pick it, and have it be properly in pitch to bend it back down

My dad, who is a real blues & Billy Gibbon fan gave me that as my first real "guitar lesson".. thus im pretty damn good at it actually!
I also think thats one of the most important lessons ive ever had when it comes to playing guitar.

 

[A Midnight Requiem]

I also hate when the guitarist just bends certain chords or single notes ever so slightly, causing small intonation variances. With double tracking it's not very noticeable, but when quad tracking it can make a really bad phasy sound.

I think one of the most important aspect of a good guitar player is consistency. I'd rather track a guitarist with mediocre riffs that plays consistently than a guitarist with amazing riffs that has trouble getting more than one decent take.