Wierd Intonation Problem

[abt]

dont you have to move the saddle forword if you are sharp?? also heavier strings are definatley in order, and dont fret the string to check intonation its way to unreliable always use the harmonic.

Do NOT use the harmonic! If you check against the harmonic at the 12th fret it will always be right because the harmonic won't ring out otherwise. The harmonics don't care about where the frets are. The 12th fret harmonic needs to be the same as the open string and the 12th fret.

The location of the frets is a compromise, there is no such thing as a perfectly intonated guitar. That's why you have adjustable saddles to try and create a workable string length in relation to the frets.

The easiest way to do this is to tune the open string using a tuner then fret the 12th fret, it should be the same. If the 12th fret is sharp move the saddle forward, if it's flat move it back.


EDIT:
This explains it better the me: http://www.icepoint.com/guitar/Setting up your electric guitar/index.htm

 

[PhilR]

I don't really see why this is causing such major confusion, Floyds have a finite range of intonation travel before the saddle starts to ride up against the rear frame. Chances are the guitar was simply never designed with that much adjustment in mind. I wouldn't be surprised at all if nowadays manufacturers place the bridges fractionally further back just to accommodate downtuners and the higher range of intonation required with heavy strings.

That's one thing I didn't really get when building my own guitar and it seems most manufacturers have their own ideas; What point on a given bridges intonation travel is considered the "stop line" when mounting the hardware to the guitar at the correct distance from the 12th fret? I ended up going with a Gotoh 510 bridge just for the widest range of adjustment options.

The easiest way to do this is to tune the open string using a tuner then fret the 12th fret, it should be the same. If the 12th fret is sharp move the saddle forward, if it's flat move it back.

Isn't that back to front? If you shorten the vibrating length of a string you increase it's pitch. If the note at the 12th fret is sharp compared to the harmonic then you compensate by increasing the string length from the 12th fret to the bridge. By moving the saddle back.

 

[Metaltastic]

dont you have to move the saddle forword if you are sharp??

If the 12th fret is sharp move the saddle forward, if it's flat move it back.

Nope

Isn't that back to front? If you shorten the vibrating length of a string you increase it's pitch. If the note at the 12th fret is sharp compared to the harmonic then you compensate by increasing the string length from the 12th fret to the bridge. By moving the saddle back.

Yup

 

[abt]

Isn't that back to front? If you shorten the vibrating length of a string you increase it's pitch. If the note at the 12th fret is sharp compared to the harmonic then you compensate by increasing the string length from the 12th fret to the bridge. By moving the saddle back.

Yep, I screwed that up! I meant push it forward or pull it back towards where it was. Complete nonsense! it made sense to me when I wrote it.

How about this:

If the 12th fret is sharp move the saddle away from the fingerboard
If the 12th fret is sharp move the saddle closer to the fingerboard

 

[AudioPhile777]

I play in the same tuning and haven't had a problem with intonation...

 

[Notuern]

The fine tuner can raise or lower the back end of the saddle, depending on if the string is sharp or flat. When that back end of the saddle is resting against the back wall, it will NOT be able to raise the pitch of the string by turning the fine tuner clockwise because the saddle can't go down any further. And at this far back, the screw that tightens the block onto the string is hitting the metal right underneath the fine tuner, so it can't go up either. So if that screw cannot move up or down, the fine tuner will not turn at all lol.

You are wrong.
The saddle cant possibly push downwards anyways.. because you know, there is a baseplate there.
It raises the rear of the back saddle, that is attached by a "hinge" on the high rear of the front saddle.
You either have some weird alien Floyd that i have never seen, or you are seriously wrong right here.

It also has nothing to do with me not having the strength. If I move the saddle any further back, the screw that tightens the block on to the string would be hovering above the body of my guitar and pass the bridge cavity, and anytime I raise the bridge the screw would be hitting wood.

That it hits the body might be a problem, but no matter how far back you push back the saddle, it should NOT affect the fine tuners other then the change in string pressure(=tougher to turn the screw.).
But fuck if i know, im only a guitar tech, right?

Anyway, I appreciate the help but I don't think we need to debate how the floyd rose works, we both know.

No problem, but yes, i think we do!


ANYWAYS, your problem may lie in your string height, relief, nut, frets or the bananaphone.
Just pay up and give it to a tech to look at it, because you should not have to move the saddle that far back(Unless your floyd was mounted in the wrong position in the first place.).

 

[155]

I have always used the harmonic and its worked for me that said if you intonating press harder or softer on the string youll see a dramatic it will go from sharp to flat depending on the pressure used. There have been millions of debates on this..... found this may help..\
Factors That Can Cause Poor Intonation

Incorrect positioning of the saddles This error renders the strings either too long causing intonation to be flat or too short causing the instrument to play sharp.

High action An instrument with high action will of course cause the string to be stretched further before contacting the fret, this stretching sharpens the note slightly. High action at the nut is particularly troublesome as chords played in the 1st to 3rd position can sound terribly out of tune.

Excessive Relief The strings distance to the fret can be dramatically increased on necks that have far too much relief (dip or bow towards the center). More on relief

Pickups Are Too Close to the Strings - If the pickups on your electric guitar are adjusted too close to the strings the magnetic pull can cause sharpness. Correct this before intonating the instrument. A good rule of thumb is about 3/32" between the pole and the bottom of the string when the string is fretted on the last fret.

Worn Out Strings/Defective String Replace the strings on your instrument before intonating it.

A Loose or Moving Saddle , A major problem with some of the cheaper bridges is excess play where the screw is threaded into the saddle. A good deal of play here means the saddle can move itself around requiring constant readjustment. You may wish to read my article on TonePro® bridges as an example.

A Worn saddle Wear and tear can change the contact point of the saddles crown. The wear may lengthen or shorten the string slightly.

Worn Frets Frets that are badly grooved or have flat crowns can also throw off intonation. As the point of contact on the crown of the fret changes so does the strings length. Frets must be leveled and dressed to remove the grooves or replaced if necessary.

High Frets Fret height will also effect intonation...instruments with truly tall fret wire will play incredibly sharp if the string is fretted hard. To see for yourself what effect your fretting pressure has on the instruments tune watch the pitch of the note on our tuner when fretting with different pressure.

Technique Well this isn't actually a defect, it's a "style". Some players have a rather powerful fretting technique in which they place excessive pressure on the strings when fretting and if the instrument in hand happens to have fairly tall frets this is more than enough to mess with your intonation. Some players may actually have a tendency to bend a string sharp when fretting.

Different Tunings Most professional musicians will have different instruments for different tunings. By tuning your instrument a half step down you have changed the strings tension and will normally effect the intonation.

Far Less Common Issues

A Mathematical Error If the bridge/tremolo itself has not been positioned in the correct spot on the top you may find that the saddles have been adjusted to their maximum length without reaching the required adjustment. This is very rare, most likely to be found on a no-name, home-made instrument or something with a mis-matched neck/scale length.

 

[kenfobert]

"You are wrong.
The saddle cant possibly push downwards anyways.. because you know, there is a baseplate there.
It raises the rear of the back saddle, that is attached by a "hinge" on the high rear of the front saddle.
You either have some weird alien Floyd that i have never seen, or you are seriously wrong right here."

Lol man, obviously the saddle being pushed back is affecting my fine tuners. I tired explaining it with the picture. It makes perfect sense. Maybe you have worked with different Floyd Bridges? You should just try and move the saddle back to where it's touching the back plate and then see how little play you have on the fine tuners. Just try it. The fact that it has happened to my guitar as well as the other guys guitar in my band, should intrigue you experiment with it.

I appreciate everyone helping out. I'm gonna definitely change my string gauge, maybe give the neck a little less relief and see how that goes.

 

[ParsonsMatt]

10-52 is what I would use for E standard! Definitely try getting a thicker set of strings, for a low B I recommend at least a 56, probably closer to 60. I would personally want a 13-68 gauge set for that tuning but I love my strings tight.

 

[STINNETT]

You are wrong.
The saddle cant possibly push downwards anyways.. because you know, there is a baseplate there.
It raises the rear of the back saddle, that is attached by a "hinge" on the high rear of the front saddle.
You either have some weird alien Floyd that i have never seen, or you are seriously wrong right here.

Actually, what he's describing makes perfect sense. There is a spring plate under the string locking screws that holds them up, thus raising the rear pivoting portion of the saddle. That holds it with pressure against the fine tuner, and also holds it up off of the base plate. When you tighten the fine tuner, it pushes the saddle down against that spring pressure, pushing it closer to the base plate.
If you push the saddle back against the ramp, the cam action of the ramp will raise the pivoting portion of the saddle, thus raising the locking screw, and after a certain point you would have to back the fine tuner out to keep pushing it back further. At the extremes, you would be locked in with no fine tuning capability.

To the original poster, I've seen people have to grind off the back of the saddle to keep it from contacting the ramp on the base plate for purposes of intonation. Perhaps that's something to think about if all else fails.

 

[Metaltastic]

Guess we found another disadvantage of Floyds (yes I still dig them too, don't hurt me )

 

[53Crëw]

I actually had this same problem on one of my guitars. I was tuning to C standard and when I moved the saddles back for proper intonation, the Low E string fine tuner could only be adjusted about 3 turns before it bottomed out the saddle piece on the angled part of the base plate. Basically, I just decided not to use that guitar for C tuning and set it up for D standard. Generally, though, it seems to not be a problem for me unless tuning below C.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if nowadays manufacturers place the bridges fractionally further back just to accommodate downtuners and the higher range of intonation required with heavy strings.

That's what Caparison does with their HGS guitars. The bridge is mounted 3mm further back so it can accommodate proper intonation at lower tunings.

 

[16S]

Actually, what he's describing makes perfect sense. There is a spring plate under the string locking screws that holds them up, thus raising the rear pivoting portion of the saddle. That holds it with pressure against the fine tuner, and also holds it up off of the base plate. When you tighten the fine tuner, it pushes the saddle down against that spring pressure, pushing it closer to the base plate.
If you push the saddle back against the ramp, the cam action of the ramp will raise the pivoting portion of the saddle, thus raising the locking screw, and after a certain point you would have to back the fine tuner out to keep pushing it back further. At the extremes, you would be locked in with no fine tuning capability.

To the original poster, I've seen people have to grind off the back of the saddle to keep it from contacting the ramp on the base plate for purposes of intonation. Perhaps that's something to think about if all else fails.

THANK THE FUCKING LORD! Someone is talking sense!
This thread brought out some right Floyd retards (not talking about the OP)

 

[Notuern]

Actually, what he's describing makes perfect sense. There is a spring plate under the string locking screws that holds them up, thus raising the rear pivoting portion of the saddle. That holds it with pressure against the fine tuner, and also holds it up off of the base plate. When you tighten the fine tuner, it pushes the saddle down against that spring pressure, pushing it closer to the base plate.
If you push the saddle back against the ramp, the cam action of the ramp will raise the pivoting portion of the saddle, thus raising the locking screw, and after a certain point you would have to back the fine tuner out to keep pushing it back further. At the extremes, you would be locked in with no fine tuning capability.

I have never seen a Floyd where the holes for the intonation screws are that far back that you actually can lock the saddle down in that position.. so i guess that explains it.
Its just weird, because ive adjusted Schallers, Gotoh's, OFR and various Ibanez versions, and on all of them the farthest intonation you can get is just before it goes on top of that ramp.

Either way, if the intonation is that bad, the problem needs to be corrected on the guitar.

 

[Sweetnothing]

I had the same problem on the rg550 I had, tuned to D standard ( 11-52 strings)
But the different bridge had more range for the finetuners ( since the saddles weren't as close as on a OFR)

However, since there's many people here that knows better than me...what if it's just one string that's set that far back?
I have the 5th string on my schecter is set with the saddle completely out of range ( as close to the fretboard as it can be) and since it's a 7 string, it's on standard tuning.
Could it be the nut? ( tuneomatic bridge)
Any other places to look at?

 

[Force666]

How about this:

If the 12th fret is sharp move the saddle away from the fingerboard
If the 12th fret is sharp move the saddle closer to the fingerboard

Nope doublefail.

 

[abt]

Nope doublefail.

Christ, bloody cut n paste, I really should slow down.

 

[kenfobert]

Actually, what he's describing makes perfect sense. There is a spring plate under the string locking screws that holds them up, thus raising the rear pivoting portion of the saddle. That holds it with pressure against the fine tuner, and also holds it up off of the base plate. When you tighten the fine tuner, it pushes the saddle down against that spring pressure, pushing it closer to the base plate.
If you push the saddle back against the ramp, the cam action of the ramp will raise the pivoting portion of the saddle, thus raising the locking screw, and after a certain point you would have to back the fine tuner out to keep pushing it back further. At the extremes, you would be locked in with no fine tuning capability.

To the original poster, I've seen people have to grind off the back of the saddle to keep it from contacting the ramp on the base plate for purposes of intonation. Perhaps that's something to think about if all else fails.

Thanks for the tip Stinnet, and everyone else. I might take it in to a shop and see if I can just get the whole bridge moved back a couple mm as Caparison does.

 

[Wolfeman]

Have you tried bigger strings yet? I've seen it mentioned, yet you haven't said anything about it. I always had intonation problems with my down tuned axes, and raising the gauge got them to play nice. Just a thought before making a huge decision like moving the bridge.

 

[Metaltastic]

Thanks for the tip Stinnet, and everyone else. I might take it in to a shop and see if I can just get the whole bridge moved back a couple mm as Caparison does.

Oog, I wouldn't bet on it, I'd guess they'd have to take out the studs and bushings, fill them in, and redrill them slightly back, your poor guitar