Homophobia
- Thread starter Sadistik
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Misanthrope
Latin, NOT Mexican.
Nature is defined a posteriori. Homosexuality, non-pathologically, exists in nature, therefore it's natural.
Yes and no. Homosexuals can procreate. We're not talking about infertility. Secondly, it's naive of you to perceive ecology in terms of individual fitness (passing on of individual genes). What's natural shouldn't strictly be defined as what's healthful to the individual. It turns out ecology (the process of surviving, eating, procreating etc)- and therefore evolution (the epiphenomenal effect of ecology)- is driven by "group fitness". This means the "group" actually functions as a substantive entity in the process of evolution, which means the evolutionary game is not reducible to the "passing of [one's] genes."
Yes and no. A population of sexually reproducing organisms that consists of only one-half of the sexes is unnatural. But this situation doesn't exist in Nature. That is your imposition- a counterfactual "what if" game you introduced in the prior post. But what's this got to do with sexual preference? Even an isolated population of all heterosexual- let alone any sexual- males will go extinct. Your "in and of itself" means nothing.
Misanthrope
Latin, NOT Mexican.
Well...In a way yea im switching views on this subject all the time. Sometimes i wanna be respectful, sometimes i wanna give people a chance, but sometimes, i get no arguments that satisfy me ( on the pro gay part ) and some other times i find people that i just cannot understand ( when using moral as an argument ). Why would someone say "Yea it is wrong because is morally incorrect" to me it has as much substance as saying "Yea god exist cause it cannot be proven he does not" .Both concepts are arcaic outdated and plain stupid to me. But if you think i also have blood in my hands it is probably because i do not get along well with unjustified rules and laws.
Satori
Destructosaur
Your whole stance is based completely on what you interpret as being NORMAL. As someone brilliantly said in this thread already, we see things in relation to ourselves.
"Normality" is something that exist in your mind and ONLY in your mind.
Also, what are these supposed "laws of nature" you are referring to? Last time I checked, nature was extremely diverse and forever changing/adapting/mutating, the only laws of nature I'm aware of are the law of physics which govern the expression of life in our little world. There is no natural law which suggests homosexuality is abnormal, this is just a mental construct, an interpretation.
The key to evolution is diversity. The whole reason we have sexual reproduction in the first place is because it greatly increases this diversity. Along with such nature-sanctioned diversity we have mutations/characteristics which may or may not help the propagation of the species, and this is irrelavant of course, it's up to the environment to decide which mutations/characteristics get to survive, the mutations/characteristics (ie. sexuality, hair colour, testicular diameter) do not make this choice themselves. Mutations simply occur, good or bad, they occur. It is no more unnatural to be gay that it is to be born with diabetes or as a half-blind albino, these are all characteristics which happen to not help the species propagate and that's all they are.
Are such mutations "wrong". Certainly not. We owe of lives to this abilty of life to mutate and express itself in an unending variety of ways. Of course not all of these mutations are life-giving, but without them we wouldn't even exist, and nor would ANY life on this planet.
The only "law" which evolution (nature) follows is that of continued diversity and adaptation through constant mutation. Homosexuality, whether it be present in humans or other animals, is not in definace of this "law", it is a direct expression of this law.
Satori
Belial
Rainbow Demon
I find your argument laughable. Of course I don't sleep with woman since my life doesn't depend on it. Who are you to assume that homosexuality is unnatural, like killing? At least provide adequate evidence to support your claims!
It's likely you just said that second sentence to support your argument, but if that's so, then you have some serious issues. Personally I wouldn't choose death over sex with a woman. I'd rather do something I don't like and live out the rest of my life then cut it short for some foolish sense of pride.
Oh my god! Do you even know what artificial insemination is? It's when you jerk off into a cup and they shoot it up some woman. It's not an exclusively gay thing. In fact straight people have it done ten times more then gay people. It's extremely stupid of you to judge a group unnatural based on a means of procreation that everyone else uses.And if you think that infertile couples and those who choose not to have kids are unnatural then you are a sad person.
Satori
Destructosaur
I'm not saying this because I want to be a prick or to pick on you:
It sounds to me like you are harbouring a lot of anger and hatred that it's affecting the quality of your life and limiting your happiness. I hope some day you will realize that people are people and cannot be judged based on their ethnicity. I also hope that one day you will realize that being racist because you yourself are a victim of racism is not only completely hypocritical, but counter-productive because you are purposefully and actively perpetuating the sort of race-based hatred which you are so opposed to.
I know it's hard to look past the shitty things people do to you, but if you don't at least try then you'll never know contentment and unity. Also, I think that anyone who discriminates against you because of your colour is an idiot, so please do not mimic their idiocy by being an idiot racist yourself.
Instead of hating racist people, why not just pity them for being so primitive and stupid?
Satori
Belial
Rainbow Demon
Yeah, I get that a lot. It used to bother me at first, but I got used to it. Most people refer to me as the dark guy with the satanic music.
oh no. not another thread like this.
i didn't follow this thread for a while because it was getting out of hand.
i hope you didn't mean it the way you did (the quote in the previous post), misantrophe, for i respect you as a writer of inteligent posts. but if this is true... well, another brick in the wall. am i so antiracial because i'm german and we were brought up like this all the time (maybe too often) because of our history, or did you all forget what history should have taught you? i cannot believe it.
i didn't follow this thread for a while because it was getting out of hand.
i hope you didn't mean it the way you did (the quote in the previous post), misantrophe, for i respect you as a writer of inteligent posts. but if this is true... well, another brick in the wall. am i so antiracial because i'm german and we were brought up like this all the time (maybe too often) because of our history, or did you all forget what history should have taught you? i cannot believe it.
Satori
Destructosaur
Science has however been able to produce homosexual animals quite easily, which clearly shows that it's not just a "choice", as some of the more idiotic people here would like us to believe.
Your story is the same as every other I've heard. Thanks for sharing. If anyone here gives you a hard time about your sexuality, I'll will condescend the hell out of them, heheh
Sexuality is a very primal instinct, it's as primal as the urge to suckal from your mother's tit, so of course it's determined by biology. Even the fact that we like sugar and don't like salt water is determined by biology.
About this whole concept of homosexuality being "unnatural", how could nature create something that is unnatural? The idea that homosexuality is unnatual is just beyond dumb.
Satori
Belial
Rainbow Demon
Satori, you and others have brought up a very good point.
A lot of people think they have a pretty good sense of right and wrong, but they don't know why. A lot of people also have a sense of normal and abnormal, but no logic behind that.
Morality and normality is something you are taught. We live in a biased culture where gays are viewed as immoral and unnatural. Most of us grew up in such a biased household (I did, and that caused me a lot of grief when I learned I was one of the gay people I hated so much) and we are all, in effect, brainwashed by our society and programed to believe certain things. We assume that society is infallible, but it isn't.
At one people whites thought they were racially, and morally superior to blacks. At one point it was considered moral for a woman to be a housewife with little choice in the matter. It was considered "unnatural" for a woman to work and live on her own like they do today (people even argued that it was against the laws of nature). At one point witches were hunted and burned at the stake, now we have many practicing wiccans. Society itself is human, and it is just as fallible. The problem starts when you are so deeply lost in society's preprogramming that you can't wake up and open your mind to new ideas.
Fortunately for me, I was forced to wake up. When I was 14 I would have been the first to pick up a sign and picket gays. I would've see nothing wrong with throwing stones or beating the crap out of them. Imagine how much difficulty that hatred caused me. After reflecting on why I felt that way, I found that I had no reason other then the reasons I was told to believe. I pretty much had all gays catagorized without even having to think about it for myself. That was the catalyst that helped me to reconsile with my own homosexuality.
Anyway, enough preaching. It doesn't matter if people think I'm natural or unnatural, but it does matter that they are civil enough to respect my differences as they would any other.
A lot of people think they have a pretty good sense of right and wrong, but they don't know why. A lot of people also have a sense of normal and abnormal, but no logic behind that.
Morality and normality is something you are taught. We live in a biased culture where gays are viewed as immoral and unnatural. Most of us grew up in such a biased household (I did, and that caused me a lot of grief when I learned I was one of the gay people I hated so much) and we are all, in effect, brainwashed by our society and programed to believe certain things. We assume that society is infallible, but it isn't.
At one people whites thought they were racially, and morally superior to blacks. At one point it was considered moral for a woman to be a housewife with little choice in the matter. It was considered "unnatural" for a woman to work and live on her own like they do today (people even argued that it was against the laws of nature). At one point witches were hunted and burned at the stake, now we have many practicing wiccans. Society itself is human, and it is just as fallible. The problem starts when you are so deeply lost in society's preprogramming that you can't wake up and open your mind to new ideas.
Fortunately for me, I was forced to wake up. When I was 14 I would have been the first to pick up a sign and picket gays. I would've see nothing wrong with throwing stones or beating the crap out of them. Imagine how much difficulty that hatred caused me. After reflecting on why I felt that way, I found that I had no reason other then the reasons I was told to believe. I pretty much had all gays catagorized without even having to think about it for myself. That was the catalyst that helped me to reconsile with my own homosexuality.
Anyway, enough preaching. It doesn't matter if people think I'm natural or unnatural, but it does matter that they are civil enough to respect my differences as they would any other.
Haha...nice touch, Astarte.
:: stretches :: FINALLY! I didn't see this thread before and finally after reading 4 pages worth and wanting to say and comment on so many different things...this is what I'm left with.
You're all acting GAY!
I'M KIDDEN! It just fit with all this disagreeing going on. Damn already. I'm fatigued from 4 pages of this crazy debate. Strong minds = strong opinions. It's an issue only because we make it one. So! Issue away, right!
I try to put myself in others shoes when thinking this way. Maybe it's because I have an good imagination. Imagine trying to hide your heterosexuality and trying to be gay so you wont be judged? (Belial beat me to that fine answer. Welcomes.) Just try to put yourself in someone else's position.
The problem starts when you are so deeply lost in society's preprogramming that you can't wake up and open your mind to new ideas. -Belial
Now this, I like. So very true IMO as well. For me it was like a switch. One day I met people who were so liberated...so free thinking than what I was used to. It felt good to go against the grain but not because it was against anything...because it felt good to stand alone actual. To take what I was given all thought through and decided and unwrap it start over with a fresh mind and take it were MY mind wanted to.
Is this making any sense. I'm hesitating like a screws loose over here. I better quit while I'm a shmuck.
cute cat btw prefer black cats though or is that racist against white cats? moonchild
That's Satans Little Helper?
:: stretches :: FINALLY! I didn't see this thread before and finally after reading 4 pages worth and wanting to say and comment on so many different things...this is what I'm left with.
You're all acting GAY!
I'M KIDDEN! It just fit with all this disagreeing going on. Damn already. I'm fatigued from 4 pages of this crazy debate. Strong minds = strong opinions. It's an issue only because we make it one. So! Issue away, right!I try to put myself in others shoes when thinking this way. Maybe it's because I have an good imagination. Imagine trying to hide your heterosexuality and trying to be gay so you wont be judged? (Belial beat me to that fine answer.
Welcomes.) Just try to put yourself in someone else's position.The problem starts when you are so deeply lost in society's preprogramming that you can't wake up and open your mind to new ideas. -Belial
Now this, I like. So very true IMO as well. For me it was like a switch. One day I met people who were so liberated...so free thinking than what I was used to. It felt good to go against the grain but not because it was against anything...because it felt good to stand alone actual. To take what I was given all thought through and decided and unwrap it start over with a fresh mind and take it were MY mind wanted to.
Is this making any sense. I'm hesitating like a screws loose over here. I better quit while I'm a shmuck.
cute cat btw prefer black cats though or is that racist against white cats? moonchild
That's Satans Little Helper?
Hail Eris!
Don't see the Fnord
cough....bullshit.....cough.
Boy George???? lol
To belial......you find chicks DISGUSTING?!!! that's fucked up! You find having sex with women DISGUSTING??? Yet, some dudes ass isn't!!! Ughhh
Satori
Destructosaur
Satori
Destructosaur
Originally posted by Hail Eris!
To belial......you find chicks DISGUSTING?!!! that's fucked up! You find having sex with women DISGUSTING??? Yet, some dudes ass isn't!!! Ughhh
Yes, that is the way he is. People have different tastes for things. For example, my gramma hates chocolate, can't stand it. I'm a bit of a freak in that I absolutely detest tobacco smoke but I love good pot bud. We are all different, and there's nothing particularly confusing about this.
Speaking of gays/straights, I once knew a guy that was neither, nor was he both. This guy just has no interest sex/love of any kind, and it's not cuz he was abused or repressed either, that's just how he is, neither men or women turn him on at all.
Satori
veil the sky
Lexicon V
I think there are obviously people who still think that homosexuality is immoral, but that's because people draw their morals from very different sources of authority....and some of those are crap. I won't take the moral line of misanthrope, although I won't get personal about his choice in the matter. I think that moral truths do exist and you don't have to point to a religious source of authority to say that. Morals can have a rational basis such as those of Immanuel Kant. Those who have denied that morals as such do not exist have always reached philosophies with which I greatly disagree such as Nietzche.
I also think that Belial's comment about finding 'heterosexual sex disgusting' extremely important. I don't 'hate gays' and I wouldn't beat the crap out of someone for 'being or even acting gay,' but at the same time I do find 'homosexual sex' disgusting. If I said I didn't I would be plain lying. That doesn't render me incapable of liking a gay person and it certainly doesn't mean that I hate 'gay people' that would just be emotional immaturity on my part. People IMHO often confuse their disgust for homosexual sex with a moral objection. It doesn't only happen with sexuality, it also happens with art, I'm sure you all have met people who have a genuine moral objection to heavy metal!
As for the 'unnatural' objection, it just makes no sense. Homosexuality MUST be natural because it occurs within nature! If homosexuals could only be created by extensive laboratory work and manufacture, then maybe you could say it was unnatural, but even then only maybe. Homosexuals are born like heterosexuals, that makes them just as natural in every way. You can't point to some natural features (reproduction) to support the claim that other natural features (homosexuality) are unnatural!
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