Homophobia

on a strictly biological anatomic view: yes it is not normal .But i would be very interested in checking hormone levels in gay persons and if as expected some of them are balanced the wrong way i wonder if a mental process what makes a person gay. That is about the only thing that would make me thing it might not be a merely mental problem. Making the assumtion it is...is that so bad? should we then reject everyone who's mind does not work the same as the average one? i wonder. I wonder then why do not hate everyone who is extremely antisocial. It is about the same thing if my asumption of being a mental issue is correct and the last time i checked beign an antisocial person does not usually leads people into outright hate and violence towards we the antosocial. Is it abnormal and discusting o be an antisocial person? Is it sick? How come we are so afraid of this? could we all have a bit of homosexuality in ourselves and being just affraid it could become more serious? How many of you have ever gave someone of your same sex a hug? is it that not sexual at all? are every male attracted to their mother and hate their father just as Freud said?....There is a lot of questions to be answered
 
Originally posted by Lina
being enlightened enough to see that homosexuality is no more "unnatural" than heterosexuality is not just being politically correct.


I'm sorry, but I disagree. Homosexuality is not as natural as heterosexuality, because in the laws of nature one subset of people can carry on, the other dies out.
 
i once saw a documentary that claimed that homosexuality was a genetic defect that is inherited through the mothers side of the family, dont know how credible this is though...
 
moonchild,

anyone with even a tenuous understanding of Mendel's law of heritable traits, knows that's simply not true.
 
i didnt say it was true, i was simply stating that i saw it in a documentary, it was a while ago and i cant really remember the details but i think they noticed that if you were a homosexual then it was likely that one or more of your cousins on your mothers side were also homosexual, and they had some geneoligist talking about it, again i repeat it is not my view...
 
Originally posted by Wolff



I'm sorry, but I disagree. Homosexuality is not as natural as heterosexuality, because in the laws of nature one subset of people can carry on, the other dies out.

I'm no expert in evolutionary theory so take this as disingenous if you will, but I'd say your view draws from the view of evolutionary dynamics in terms of individual fitness. Evolutionists today deal with group dynamics, and in this context, your statement makes no sense or is naive at best. It might be that homosexuality actually contributes to the survival of genes on the macrophenomenal (searching for words here) level of group fitness. Besides, homosexuality abounds in Nature. thoughts?
 
funny how there always seem to be a couple of anti characters, a bunch of anti-anti characters and one or two anti-anti-anti characters in these conversations. =)





moonchild, I don't quite understand what you're getting at. you tell people not to tell others they are wrong, not to deprive others of their say and not to try and sanitize the boards, but you're doing all these things yourself. care to clarify? i've yet to see anyone manage to both be part of a conversation and stand above it.





the map is not the territory.
 
btw i found an informative website, lot of detail: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97jun/burr2.htm
it seems experiments have been carried out which suggest that homosexuality is partly genetic, anyway if you want you can read it all for yourself, but ive included a section below;

WHEN BIOLOGISTS ARE INTERESTED IN ESTABLISHING whether genetics is involved in the appearance of certain characteristics or conditions, one obvious place to look is among people who are closely related to one another. In "A Genetic Study of Male Sexual Orientation," a study that has now achieved almost as much renown as LeVay's, the Northwestern University psychologist Michael Bailey and Boston University's Richard Pillard compared fifty-six "monozygotic" twins (identical twins, from the same zygote, or fertilized egg), fifty-four "dizygotic" (fraternal) twins, and fifty-seven genetically unrelated adopted brothers. Identical twins are important in sexual-orientation research because, of course, they have identical genomes, including the sex-chromosome pair. If homosexuality is largely genetic in origin, then the more closely related that people are, the greater should be the concordance of their sexual orientation.

That is, in fact, what the study found. Bailey and Pillard reported a gay-gay concordance rate of 11 percent for the adoptive brothers, 22 percent for the dizygotic twins, and 52 percent for the monozygotic twins. The findings suggest that homosexuality is highly attributable to genetics -- by some measures up to 70 percent attributable, according to Pillard. This figure is based on something geneticists call "heritability," a painstakingly calculated indicator of how much genes have to do with a given variation among people. If heritability is less than 100 percent, then the characteristic being studied is by definition "multifactorial." Eye color is 100 percent dependent on genetics. Height, on the other hand, though about 90 percent genetic, is also affected by nutrition, and thus is multifactorial.

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and as for protocol, to clarify, i was simply stating from what i saw, people who said they did not like homosexual behaviour were getting called shallow or unenlightened etc., i simply stated that people have a right to their opinions and if you flame them or ridicule them after they have made their opinion you are unlikely to get others wanting to go against the flow and voice their alternate viewpoint, that to me would result in the sanitation of the board, everyone would have the same view and i cant see how that would be beneificial to anyone, and i cant see from what ive post how i've been hypocritical, i have not ridiculed other people for their viewpoint, nor expressed my viewpoint as the correct one, or the "enlightened" one, in fact i dont think i posted my view, i am willing to listen to everyone and accept what they have to say...
 
Originally posted by Xtokalon


I'm no expert in evolutionary theory so take this as disingenous if you will, but I'd say your view draws from the view of evolutionary dynamics in terms of individual fitness. Evolutionists today deal with group dynamics, and in this context, your statement makes no sense or is naive at best. It might be that homosexuality actually contributes to the survival of genes on the macrophenomenal (searching for words here) level of group fitness. Besides, homosexuality abounds in Nature. thoughts?

Has nothing to do with fitness. Homosexuals as a group can not procreate. If isolated, they'd be... extinct. Hardly a more natural group than heterosexulas imho.
 
>i simply stated that people have a right to their opinions



so people have a right to have opinions, but not to have opinions on other people's opinions? i'm still not getting you. =/



>if you flame them or ridicule them after they have made

>their opinion you are unlikely to get others wanting to

>go against the flow and voice their alternate viewpoint



or perhaps people will pause for a while and think about why they have the opinions they do and present those reasons, and we can have a nice debate. maybe?



>i have not ridiculed other people for their viewpoint, nor

>expressed my viewpoint as the correct one, or the

>"enlightened" one, in fact i dont think i posted my view,



you haven't expressed your opinion on homophobia/homosexuality, ok. what you have expressed is your opinion that people shouldn't voice their opinions on other people's opinions. read that sentence carefully and you'll find the hypocrisy.



>i am willing to listen to everyone and accept what they have to say...



i don't believe you. =/
 
My Opinion
yes people have a right to their own opinions, but not a right to deride other peoples opinions, isnt that what this whole homophobic debate is about, the fact that people should be able to choose to be homosexual and not have people telling them it is wrong or disgusting, if you think that it is wrong that is ok, but you should not try to enforce your opinion on someone else and vice versa

or perhaps people will pause for a while and think about why they have the opinions they do and present those reasons, and we can have a nice debate. maybe?
they have already presented their opininions and said why and have been told that they are shallow, and i believe i did ask for an informed debate rather than simply saying that "i'm right, you're wrong"

sorry in my mind i have not been hypocritical, perhaps i have not explained my position as well as i could have but in my mind i am very clear as to how i stand, i never once said that i was right, i made suggestion as to how i think that the debate on the subject could be better handled, but i accept that people will do whatever they want and i have little influence or control over them, in my mind that which i said was not directed against any particular viewpoint and i dont know why you choose to single out my otherwise unremarkable post for analysis...
 
anyway i'm sure you're writing a great reply as i speak, but unfortunitely i have to go to bed and get some sleep, early start in the morning, but rest assured i will be looking forward with anticipation to reading your well informed and expertly penned reply once i return tomorrow evening, i bid you farewell...for now :)
 
Originally posted by Wolff


Has nothing to do with fitness. Homosexuals as a group can not procreate. If isolated, they'd be... extinct. Hardly a more natural group than heterosexulas imho.

You mean a population of same-sex individuals can't procreate. That's stating the obvious. Males, without females, can't procreate by themselves. And neither can females (excluding the incidence of parthenogenesis). Also, all individuals eventually go extinct. So unless your talking about evolution- fitness and ecology- then you're making no sense. Human homosexuals can and do father (mother) children of their own. Look at Mike J!
 
Originally posted by Wolff
I'm sorry, but I disagree. Homosexuality is not as natural as heterosexuality, because in the laws of nature one subset of people can carry on, the other dies out.
Perhaps it is a natural means of population control. I meant "natural" in the sense that some people and animals have been born that way as long as life has existed. Do you feel grossed out by infertile men and women? After all, they won't procreate. Does that bother you, keep you up at night? :p

And moonchild, if someone's "opinion", as you insist on calling it, is morally/ethically/logically wrong, should no one clue them in? (And please, let's not argue the subjectivity of "wrong." For instance, as a society, we've accepted that racism is "wrong.") Not all "opinions" are equally valid and worthy of respect. THAT would be politically correct.
 
There is no morally/ethically wrong opinions. As much as i dislike the way people judge and hate people because they are different, there is no right or wrong in moral. Everyman has a set of moral standarts and what the average of the population has in common wich such moral becomes socially acceptable morals. But such things can change with time and even from country to country, Murder is morally wrong but murder in the name of a nation is morally righ and we even make those people heroes. That idea of moral sickens me. But as much as i hate it for some people is correct to do so so its moral. You simply cannot asume that something YOU think is wrong is as much as i would want it to asume it too. Having a concept of right and wrong is childish and stupid moral means nothing.
 
good points Lina!







and about this 'natural' thing, wolff - what about sex? heterosexuals don't indulge in sex to procreate anywhere near all the time (more like 1% or less?). there's a LOT more heterosexual unprocreative sex going on than gay sex over all (or so i imagine). i bet most people here have never engaged in procreative sex regardless of sexual orientation - i know i haven't.



swedes, if isolated, would go extinct too at the current rate - the only reason our population is growing is the immigrants, and i assure you all of sweden isn't gay. =)



ergo, i find that homosexuality in this aspect is no more unnatural than any number of methods of birth control, or sex performed under the influence of such. i bet you could have a nice argument with the pope as to whether these actually are unnatural or not. ;D
 
All and all, I could'nt care less. Everyones going on about: is it wrong/unnatural to be a homo? Is wrong to think its wrong? Is it wrong to think its wrong to think its wrong?
Well it may not be wrong but it surely isn't normal;but do what the hell you wanna do. I must confess, however, that queers do kindda gross me out. Lesbians, on the other hand, are aesthetically pleasing to me.
and ...I liked the theory about it being natures solution to overpopulation, even though it seems quiet unlikely. ( info- world population in 60's = around 3 billion and something---- world population now= 6 billion-----meaning....in 40 years the worlds pop has doubled....at this rate....ponder...)