Homophobia

[Lina]

Originally posted by moonchild
ah please dont let political correctness invade these boards, its one of the few places that we can speak freely these days, if someone says they dont agree with homosexuality so what?, everyone has a right to their own opinion and their own views based on their own experiences, and to say that people who do not agree with homosexuality are shallow is no different to saying those people who indulge in homosexuality are disgusting, you are still judging them by their thoughts or actions

being enlightened enough to see that homosexuality is no more "unnatural" than heterosexuality is not just being politically correct. if someone came on here spouting racist comments, would you urge us all to stop "judging" that person? granted, i'm pleasantly surprised with most of the comments so far and no one has said anything outright attacking toward gays. but i hear hints of homophobia when people fear making contact with gays, the same as i see hints of racism when white people go out of their way to send their kids to private schools (the public schools being predominantly black around here) even though the public schools offer just as good an education.

Anyway, I really would like to know something about those effiminate gays. Do they consciously choose to act as "gay" as they can, or is it something relating to their disposition?

I've wondered this too. Is the stereotypical gay personality just a defense mechanism, a way of showing the world that you refuse to be kept in the closet? A way of conforming to the niche society has carved out for you, the same way teenage girls listen to NSync? I tend to believe this, even if it's not a conscious decision on the part of the person.

I agree that I don't like the over-the-top, flamingly gay personality, but that's not a problem I have with gayness -- it's a problem with the shallowness of the people. I don't like obnoxious straight people either.


And Metalman, while I see the merit in throwing parades to force the public to get used to homosexuality, I also admit being annoyed when people hang the rainbow flag outside their house. It makes me think, "I don't really care who you're fucking. I don't have a heterosexual flag outside mine." It makes it harder for me to think of them as people, because i'm distracted with disgusting images of these two butch women going down on each other. (Just as I'd be disgusted picturing any of my straight neighbors going at it too.) So I understand what you mean about "flaunting" it. BUT...

Here's a question to ask yourself: If you saw a gay couple walking down the street holding hands, would you be annoyed they are "flaunting" their sexuality? Where do you draw the line? Obviously there is a line somewhere between holding hands and holding parades, but be honest, I would bet just seeing a couple publicly express affection the way you do with your wife would probably make you annoyed. And that's just hypocritical. It's ok if that's your gut reaction, I know it's hard to change that. But don't think the gay couple has done anything rude -- you're the one with the problem in that circumstance.


Satori, the second half of your post is beautiful.

 

[moonchild]

being enlightened enough to see that homosexuality is no more "unnatural" than heterosexuality is not just being politically correct

it is if you try to sanitise the boards and flame everyone who thinks differently to yourself, or label them as shallow or un-enlightened, let people have their say and have informed debates, but as it is if someone says that they dont agree with homosexuality or some aspect of it they are immediately jumped on and told that they are wrong to do so

 

[veil the sky]

The concept of "normal" exists only within our minds.

That's very true, what's more, to call something 'normal' is only to express the perceived relation it has to ourselves. That is what we would call normal is a 'self-expression.'

ummm sorry to bust your bubble but any word with phobia behind it means your scared of it like acrophobia, aracnaphobia,ect. . . so homophobia would be scared of gay people. Evern though the actual word gay means happy? I still haven't figured that out. And a fagget is some stick put together?!

Stricktly speaking that is true, but the term 'homophobia' has been integrated into language with connotations of irrational hatred. I think it's the irrational part which is important and is why the term was first used to discourage such discriminatory behaviour. I might not do language itself any good though to mis-use suffixes like -phobia.

There HAS certainly been an anti-gay sentiment throughout some extreme metal. Much early BM, for example was fascist in it's ideological approach; everyone knows that there was a lot of Nazi sympathisers in their ranks (Morbid Angel e.g. (I know not BM)).Thankfully, though, I think much (if not most) of that has disappeared.

"I don't really care who you're fucking. I don't have a heterosexual flag outside mine."

That's also true and also very sad. If I were to hang a flag symbolising heterosexuality outside my window, people would construe it as a 'homophobic' statement.

Here's a question to ask yourself: If you saw a gay couple walking down the street holding hands, would you be annoyed they are "flaunting" their sexuality?

No, because I wouldn't want homosexuals telling me I couldn't express public heterosexual affection for my wife. Nice point.

 

[Lina]

Originally posted by moonchild
it is if you try to sanitise the boards and flame everyone who thinks differently to yourself, or label them as shallow or un-enlightened, let people have their say and have informed debates, but as it is if someone says that they dont agree with homosexuality or some aspect of it they are immediately jumped on and told that they are wrong to do so

well, having an "informed debate" with someone who is uninformed is impossible. hence, if someone is uninformed, it's not a bad thing to inform/correct them. if someone's "opinion" is based on misinformation, they should be presented with the facts. i agree that no one should come on here yelling at others, but I don't think anyone did. Anyway, carry on...

 

[Jayde]

I personally have 2 gay friends and 1 lesbian friend. They are the sweetest people in the world. I have absolutely no problems with it whatsoever. It's the same way I feel about racism, if you can't see beyond a layer of skin then you're a pretty pathetic individual. And if you can't see past a ONE of a person's prefernces than you're also really pathetic.

Here's an actual scenario:

me:you see that guy over there?
friend:which one?
me:the one in the red shirt
friend:the black guy?
me:no, the guy in the red shirt..........

I think it's sad if you don't see that gay is not all that a person is, black, white, or yellow is not all that a person is.

 

[moonchild]

lina all i am saying is instead of telling other people why they are wrong it would be better just to explain why, in your opinion, you are right

 

[Russell]

Originally posted by Lina
being enlightened enough to see that homosexuality is no more "unnatural" than heterosexuality is not just being politically correct.

This is what I was trying to explain on the tolerance of other's view thread, that I wasn't just being PC

 

[veil the sky]

I think it's sad if you don't see that gay is not all that a person is, black, white, or yellow is not all that a person is.

I know exactly what you mean and what you're getting at, but I think that rather than breaking down racial barriers, it can build new ones if people are constantly having to avoid reference to race or sexual orientation. When I talk to my friends of different ethnic background, I'm glad I don't have to purposely avoid the issues of race when relevant. I don't avoid these issues when I talk with my white friends after all.

If you said to me 'no, the guy in the red shirt' of course it's important that people's understanding doesn't stop at racial background, but my first thought would be. 'Yes he is black,' that doesn't imply any negative stereotype, it's just indexical. I could of course say, 'yes he is black, he's my best mate.' I think if political correctness means that we have to hide from racial identity or sexual orientation for fear of implication, then it's best done without.

This looks like I'm arguing aginst you, but I'm not at all because I know what you're saying about the way some people see those who are different and I agree with your sentiment.

 

[moonchild]

absolutely, people like to categorize, that includes other people, they dont necessarily have any malice or spite behind what they say

 

[Lina]

Originally posted by moonchild
lina all i am saying is instead of telling other people why they are wrong it would be better just to explain why, in your opinion, you are right

we agree.

Veil the Sky, I agree with what you're saying. I thought the same thing while reading Jayde's post. I wonder if the story was confusing in that maybe the guy in the red shirt wasn't the black guy.

There have been only a couple people in my entire life of different races with whom I've been able to have an open conversation about race (even though almost everyone I know is black). It's such a shame. I'll tell you where it gets real ugly -- political/social/debate classes here at the univ of maryland. The campus is so divided between the blacks thinking all white people are out to get them (even here at a university) and the whites' really simplistic views of what it means to be black. it seems like there's no intelligent middle ground. leads to extremely retarded, fruitless debates. these are some of the classes i've had to skip because i just can't stand it.

 

[HarmonyDies....]

Let's all just say that everyone is entitled to there own opinion and whether they hate gays or not that is there problem.

 

[veil the sky]

I wonder if the story was confusing in that maybe the guy in the red shirt wasn't the black guy.

Oh yeh! that must be it.

And you're right on every point. It really is so depressing isn't it.

 

[Misanthrope]

That black guy thing is a bad example. Shure in an ideal world we would have a vocabulary big enough to make reference to a person and still have room for being politically perfect. But that is another line being too sensitive. I mean i do not mind if someone refers to me as that tall guy, that white guy or that fat guy. Is just who am i that is all. Im not gonna stop in the middle of the street to tell stragers "hey dude its large size men" that is beign too sensitive. Is sad that we cannot use words that avoid the subject of looks at all but it is more sad we become too sensitive about it there is a line in there too.

 

[S4R]

I love that often, people who are exceedingly hostile towards homosexuals are in fact gay themselves. For example, this guy I know is always making fun of homosexuals and trying to degrade things by labeling them gay, he is in fact gay himself, I assure you, he just won’t admit it to himself. I believe it was Shakespeare who wrote, “Me thinks thou dost protest too much.”

 

[Satori]

Interesting story:

I know a guy, he's a staunch christian and quite an asshole too (not that I'm suggesting this is any more than a coorelation).

He is quite anti-gay, and anti-anything that is anti-christian actually.

So one night we invited him out with us to a small rave-like gathering at a local nightclub cuz we felt sorry for him (even though we think he's an asshole). It was halloween. He dressed in a glittering top hat with a glittering cane with silver tassels on the end, quite feminine. I thought to myself, "shit, this guy is obviously gay, I wonder why our mutual friend didn't tell me about this?"

As the night progressed the mdma we fed him hit him and he completely let his guard down.. FLAMING! I've only ever seen one other person in my life so blatantly homosexual, dancing about like a girl and such, it was painfully obvious to everyone what his sexual orientation was just based on his disposition.

The next day, our mutual friend informed us that this guy is indeed a fag (and a flaming one at that) but he keeps it suppressed, what with his church group telling him homosexuality is a deviant "choice" and all, something he gets all worked up about whenever the topic of conversation turns to sexuality. She told us she's used to his flaming, when he gets a few drinks into him he turns from an uptight bible-thumper into a GIRL, totally bubbly, talking about clothes, shoes, commenting on the cuteness of guys and girls, gossiping like a school-girl, he's such a fucking homo! Absolutely flaming, and he doesn't know that we know, he thinks he's doing a great job of hiding it, but he is not at all. He also dresses like a gay guy with the shoes and the tight/bright clothes and shit. As if this wasn't enough, he's totally into teen pop like Britney and the Backstreet Boys (he even has their CD's).

So anyway, my point in writing this is: some people are flaming, even though they don't mean to be, even if these people are actively trying to persuade others into thinking they are straight, like this guy I know. I knew he was queer from the first time I laid eyes on him before he opened his mouth (I have an extremely accurate sense for these things), and this was when we was playing into his role of heterosexual bible-thumper.

There are some guys who are extremely masculine, they go around smelling of sweat, grunting, looking to cause violence in their 10 year old GWG jeans and black leather jackets, driving their crappy mustangs, eating at burger joints, drinking excessively, listening to white snake or motley crue or whatever. Do we look at these guys and snub them for being flamingly heterosexual? No. BUT.. if some guy is queer and as such is super-fem, why do some of you have such a problem with this? He can't help what he is anymore than the guy with the harley davidson t-shirt, so why dislike him for it? Why not just accept him for who he is?

Likewise, I know a few dykes as well, and they are incredibly masculine. One I know won't even drink wine or sweet drinks because it's too "girly". She only drinks beer and shit like rum and coke. She sits with her legs open, burps out loud, grunts as a form of communication, and has been known to be quite the violent bitch, punching people out in bars and shit (guys AND girls). Those here who are annoyed by fem guys, are you also annoyed by masculine dykes, or is your distaste reserved for the males only? If so, why?

Personally, I have no problems with anyone being as masculine or as feminine as they want to be completely regardless of their gender, and I think it's a little shallow of some of you here to not simply accept and love others for who they really are, in their minds, in their hearts, and in their sexual disposition.

People are the way they are because there is no other way they can be. If you cannot accept them for who they are then the problems is with you, not with them.

Satori

 

[justus x]

I wonder how (collective) you can suggest that feeling compelled, for whatever reason, to lead a lifestyle that eliminates the chance for procreation is natural. That's more than a little absurd. What else do you think living things exist for? If any of you think you're better than genitals with limbs and a digestive tract attached, you are sadly mistaken. If anything, Christians (etc.) should be defending (well, that's rather extreme, let's say not opposing) the gay lifestyle, since they believe that people exist for reasons other than shooting their genes on down the line to the next generation.

That said, you know, whatever. You get your time on this planet and I've got nothing to say about how you spend it. Don't get in my way and we'll get along just fine.

 

[S4R]

Originally posted by Satori
People are the way they are because there is no other way they can be. If you cannot accept them for who they are then the problems is with you, not with them.

And now for two words that more often than not enter my mind after I read a post by our dear friend Satori, I concur.

 

[Evisceratrix]

Originally posted by moonchild
the price of democracy is that the majority rules, its the way it always has been, in regards to my old avatar, if u really want to know it was taken from a picture from the dimmu borgir site that depicted a limbless corpse dripping blood, not particulary pleasant and i thought that it was a little childish and immature but if you really must see its here: http://www.dimmu-borgir.com/pictures13/images/11.jpg

yeah....i was talking about your new one .


my head hurts!

 

[Opth_001]

Originally posted by Satori
Those here who are annoyed by fem guys, are you also annoyed by masculine dykes, or is your distaste reserved for the males only? If so, why?

People are the way they are because there is no other way they can be. If you cannot accept them for who they are then the problems is with you, not with them.

Satori

Personally yeah I think that anything to any extreme is bad, But I'm not going to confront them about it unless they have something to say to me because I beleive let people do what there going to do because there going to do it any why.!

As for the second part I agree.

 

[moonchild]

yeah....i was talking about your new one .

sorry, someone else wanted to know where my old one came from...this new one comes from a still from the movie metropolis, its an old german sci-fi silent movie, its quite weird, if u get the chance to watch it do

my head hurts too

cute cat btw prefer black cats though or is that racist against white cats?