How loud do you run your mixes pre-mastering?

[rainkaos]

Just wondering if anyone has a general rule of thumb for how loud you run your master output for a mix that is going to be mastered? I'm wondering if it's better to back the mix off a bit to allow the mastering guy a little more room to move in terms of dynamics? My mix is currently running around -12 RMS on average.

Sorry in advance if this is a dumb question or been posted before.

 

[dale_a_smith]

If your getting your mixes mastered. you need to leave the masterbuss alone. No processing at all on the mix. I'd guess if your hitting -12db rms your compressing or limiting the masterbuss.

let your mix peak at -1db with no processing on then send it to the mastering engineer like that.

 

[Trevoire520]

I would give the mastering engineer a bit more headroom than that personally! -6db peak would actually leave him some headroom for eq'ing without having to reduce the gain.

 

[dale_a_smith]

Fair point. I was thinking of a mastering chain, where gain from an eq would be rained in by a compressor straight after it, but I guess you can't guarantee that's how the ME is gunna work, so yeah.

My main point was that you should leave it all to them.

 

[rainkaos]

thanks guys. Yeah I am running some compression on the main output, but I will switch it of and take your advice. I'll work on getting peaks around -6db as you suggested. The master bus compression is there really to help with doing comparisons to other tracks. It's just a bit annoying when trying to compare my mix with other albums when it's so quiet. I guess this is an issue that everyone has to deal with?

 

[dale_a_smith]

Plenty of guys that mix for a living will " mix into" compression of some description on the master bus. That's just personal taste.
It can be hard to reference against something else when there is a massive difference in volume, but you might get away with simply playing the commercial track at a lower volume..

 

[Terminus]

thanks guys. Yeah I am running some compression on the main output, but I will switch it of and take your advice. I'll work on getting peaks around -6db as you suggested. The master bus compression is there really to help with doing comparisons to other tracks. It's just a bit annoying when trying to compare my mix with other albums when it's so quiet. I guess this is an issue that everyone has to deal with?

You dont have to switch it off forever, just turn it off temporarily, then control+select all the track channels and bring them all down unison until it's peakiing at most -6dB, some people even go for -10 or even -12dB...then turn the MB comp back on and you'll be fine and have closer to commercial volume.

You can always turn down the reference music to match your tracks as well.

 

[rainkaos]

Yeah thanks guys. Glad to hear what I'm going through is normal. I'm always concious of getting my mixes loud, but I guess I should focus more on perfecting the mix and let the mastering guy worry about the overall volume.

 

[pikachu69]

Any where between -18 and -16db is typical for a mixdown pre mastering.
Mixing into a compressor is typical but if you are having to limit/clip your master buss pre mastering then your mix is too loud. Also I think master buss compresson works better with slow attack and release times to minimise the effect of compression and leaving the transients alone, acting more like 'glue'.

 

[ze kink]

You can just pull down the master fader, if everything's sounding good but your master is peaking too high. Most DAWs are floating point anyway.

 

[kaomao]

You dont have to switch it off forever, just turn it off temporarily, then control+select all the track channels and bring them all down unison until it's peakiing at most -6dB, some people even go for -10 or even -12dB...then turn the MB comp back on and you'll be fine and have closer to commercial volume.

You can always turn down the reference music to match your tracks as well.

well no I wouldn't do this!
Never turn down the volume like this, compressors you got on the mix will react differently with a different input level.
What I do is routing to aux tracks and fix the comp settings if there's any.
I mean I got drums, bass, gtrs, vocals auxes.
At least you don't lower everything this way.

EDIT: on protools as default, you got the fader pre all fx's, I dont' know in another daw how it is.
maybe in PT you can have faders post fx's, I can't remember right now

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

If your getting your mixes mastered. you need to leave the masterbuss alone. No processing at all on the mix. I'd guess if your hitting -12db rms your compressing or limiting the masterbuss.

let your mix peak at -1db with no processing on then send it to the mastering engineer like that.

I know I'm gonna sound like a dick, but this is actually very bad advice. Like already said, -1dB is too hot. Peaks at -6dB is fine, and if you'll deliver the mix in 24bits, lower won't hurt either.

And no, you absolutely do not need to leave the master bus alone. Mixing into a bus comp, saturator, tape sim or such is perfectly fine as long as you know what you're doing and you don't go overboard with it. Even a little bit of EQ can be absolutely ok.

well no I wouldn't do this!
Never turn down the volume like this, compressors you got on the mix will react differently with a different input level.
What I do is routing to aux tracks and fix the comp settings if there's any.
I mean I got drums, bass, gtrs, vocals auxes.
At least you don't lower everything this way.

EDIT: on protools as default, you got the fader pre all fx's, I dont' know in another daw how it is.
maybe in PT you can have faders post fx's, I can't remember right now

False. The channel faders in ProTools are post insert/send, just like in pretty much any stock mixer. Master faders are pre insert/send.

 

[morten.nu]

Can't the mastering people simply turn it down?

 

[pikachu69]

Can't the mastering people simply turn it down?

no.
If a mix is this hot it can only have been achieved with heavy compression and or clipping/limiting. Simply turning it down will not retstore the transient material lost in the process.
Also, the hotter the mix the less eq boosting that can be appiled before clipping will occur as an eq is nothing more than a staged volume control.

 

[morten.nu]

no.
If a mix is this hot it can only have been achieved with heavy compression and or clipping/limiting. Simply turning it down will not retstore the transient material lost in the process.
Also, the hotter the mix the less eq boosting that can be appiled before clipping will occur as an eq is nothing more than a staged volume control.

I'm talking peaks though. An un-processed mix peaking just below 0db should be fine, no?

 

[pikachu69]

I'm talking peaks though. A mix peaking just below 0db should be fine, no?

If you have the occasional peak getting close to 0 but with no overs, then it should be fine but this is style specific/dependent. As a general rule, in metal, if you have several peaks all close to 0 throughout the song but your RMS level is still low then it can be an indication of an unbalanced mix and to achieve the required loudness in mastering will come at a loss of punch and weight in the drums.
One or two peaks here and there is no big deal.

 

[kaomao]

False. The channel faders in ProTools are post insert/send, just like in pretty much any stock mixer. Master faders are pre insert/send.

got any page linking to this information?
I don't hink is really this because it's clearly there when you work with comps.

EDIT:Yeah I was wrong, but still a comp reacts strangely when I lower the fader, I mean a snare "popping" stop doing it if I lower the fader and compensate with master volume
I gotta get back home and check it

EDIT2: never mind I had in mind an audio track feeding an aux track lol

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

got any page linking to this information?
I don't hink is really this because it's clearly there when you work with comps.

Yes, ProTools manual, page 969:
"Pro Tools provides up to ten unity-gain inserts on each audio, Auxiliary Input, Master Fader, and Instrument track. Audio, Auxiliary Input, and Instrument track inserts are pre-fader, and Master Faders inserts are post-fader."

If you still don't believe me (which I find strange, since this is exactly how pretty much every console works unless they have the option to change it, in which case they're still pre-fader by default and having it the other way around would make mixing ass-backwards), you can easily try it out. Create a mono audio track, put a signal generator as the first insert, any comp with a GR meter after that, adjust so that you get some gain reduction, keep the plugin window open, start playing with the fader and observe the GR meter staying in the exact same spot.

 

[Ermz]

I try to get the snare peaking at -12, with the bulk of the mix down around -15 or so (where my converters are calibrated). Sometimes with a huge track count things creep up on me, even if my track levels are conservative.

 

[rainkaos]

thanks guys, a lot of usefull info in here. so I'm attacking the mix a bit differently now. It's peaking at around -6, but the average RMS is somewhere around the -15 to -18 range. Is that normal or should I be trying to get the average higher by means of compression or something?