I need to change my practices with clients

[kaomao]

I don't know if it's the right section to post this to or not... It's not offtopic this is really related to working in a studio and not being fucked up.
Anyway guys, lately bands are taking an advantage over my way of being: a very down to earth guy who wants the band to be relaxed not stressed.
I hate stressing people... I hate when they do it to me.
But I can say I'm a workhorse ... I work 8 to 10 hours a day (dayjob) and when it is time for night sessions I never say to anyone the session would be postponed because I'm tired.
Maybe happened once or twice a year but for the rest I was always available....
I face problems like bands taking too long to record (I don't blame totally them people have day jobs as me) maybe 1 particular month they come 2 times a week then they take one month off and so on...
This leads to a lot of them paying me always late...
Fortunately I always dealt with people who paid me (soon or later), and I had the pleasure to work with people that want a finished product in the right amount of time considering the fact we all have day jobs.
So it's not always really that bad, but you know we are not Andy Sneap and we don't work with "musicians" always.
But lately I'm so sick so I need a good way to stop giving them finished stuff.
In the past, protools 7/8, I always used beepers (voxengo beeper with a rtas to vst wrapper) with people I didn't know personally ... in the end I was starting out and didn't know all these people.
By now word of mouth worked great and I always dealt with people who are friends of this or that band so I ditched the use of beepers. you think you may trust them because they're "friends" ... so wrong.

I was thinking about a "beeper", maybe there are better solutions to that.
(I personally hate beepers... but if it's needed....)
Any other idea??? If you think a beeper is the only way to go, consider I work only in PT aax.

I think this is the only solution with some people.

 

[Machinated]

charge them each session, its way better and they'll use their time more wisely. Also, I find night sessions really hard to get good takes when everyone's a bit tired. I always find mornings are when bands are at their most productive (whether they'll admit it or not).

 

[frazzlepuff]

I'm having similar problems with bands not paying me or taking a while to pay me, I agree, them being friends or friends of friends doesn't help. Most other studios I've been in lately have practically forced me to pay at the end of the session, either by card or online if I don't have cash.

 

[kaomao]

charge them each session, its way better and they'll use their time more wisely. Also, I find night sessions really hard to get good takes when everyone's a bit tired. I always find mornings are when bands are at their most productive (whether they'll admit it or not).

Good point! I should charge them by session.
Problem here:: by day I'm a computer programmer so I can't do this in the morning
Biggest problem is when mixing or when you finished recording a session they leave and want to hear all the possible mistakes at home (mostly arrangements).
What ya do Ed? what you give them? "beeped" mp3's???

 

[kaomao]

I'm having similar problems with bands not paying me or taking a while to pay me, I agree, them being friends or friends of friends doesn't help. Most other studios I've been in lately have practically forced me to pay at the end of the session, either by card or online if I don't have cash.

I hear ya
I guess is the only solution for recordings
For mixing stuff it's different beep is the way to go lol

 

[Machinated]

Good point! I should charge them by session.
Problem here:: by day I'm a computer programmer so I can't do this in the morning
Biggest problem is when mixing or when you finished recording a session they leave and want to hear all the possible mistakes at home (mostly arrangements).
What ya do Ed? what you give them? "beeped" mp3's???

If they're local I'd just tell them if they want to listen to it before they've fully paid they have to do it in your studio. Or just say money up front before you send anything out. It's important they value your time and effort, as soon as they've committed money I guarantee they'll take things more seriously.

 

[kaomao]

If they're local I'd just tell them if they want to listen to it before they've fully paid they have to do it in your studio. Or just say money up front before you send anything out. It's important they value your time and effort, as soon as they've committed money I guarantee they'll take things more seriously.

I guess I'll do this way.

You know, I always think I'm an asshole for not giving them finished (or unfinished) stuff, but I think that's their fault if I got to something like this...

 

[haydukk]

If you feel like bands are taking longer to record and they tire you out, how about charging per hour? That way you know none of your time is wasted

 

[schwinginbatman]

I guess I'll do this way.

You know, I always think I'm an asshole for not giving them finished (or unfinished) stuff, but I think that's their fault if I got to something like this...

I see where you're coming from, but I'd say it's much better to cover your ass than not seem like a dick. I'd just say, "It's not you dudes specifically, but I gotta do this in general", even if that isn't true.

 

[Sloan]

Always, always, always get paid at least half of the current cost UP FRONT. Never, never, never let ANY audio leave your hands until you are paid 100%.

 

[brianhood]

Ideally, follow as many of these rules as you can:

• 
  charge per hour, day, or session. not per project

• 
  never work for time you haven't already been paid for or...
  

• 
  ...at least never give them ANY music until all balances have been paid
  

Clients that can't follow these requests are not serious clients. Also, holding on to music is a very good "fire under their ass" as far as getting you paid. They want to hear that shit so badly, and if paying is what's keeping them from hearing their first mixes, then they will always pay. This is not unethical, it's common sense.

There is nothing keeping them from taking their first mix, and putting it online (unless you want to go through the bullshit of putting beeps in their music, which is pointless if you follow these guidelines). I know you don't do this full time, but these are basic rules I would follow even if I were only doing this for 10 hours per week on the side.

Hope that helps!

 

[Jordon]

Ideally, follow as many of these rules as you can:

• 
  charge per hour, day, or session. not per project

• 
  never work for time you haven't already been paid for or...
  

• 
  ...at least never give them ANY music until all balances have been paid
  

Clients that can't follow these requests are not serious clients. Also, holding on to music is a very good "fire under their ass" as far as getting you paid. They want to hear that shit so badly, and if paying is what's keeping them from hearing their first mixes, then they will always pay. This is not unethical, it's common sense.

There is nothing keeping them from taking their first mix, and putting it online (unless you want to go through the bullshit of putting beeps in their music, which is pointless if you follow these guidelines). I know you don't do this full time, but these are basic rules I would follow even if I were only doing this for 10 hours per week on the side.

Hope that helps!

All of this.

I'll also add a bit of my own $.02 as far as keeping a project moving along at a good clip. When I first meet with a band to discuss the project, I stress the them the importance of scheduling tracking days as close together as is reasonably possible. I usually explain to them that, when a project is spread out over many months, with only a few days of work being done here and there, that everyone tends to lose focus and the product suffers in the end. I recently worked with a band that stretched out a full length for a year and a half from prepro to final mix, and the product suffered in the end. Everyone lost perspective, and I know on my end the initial excitement I had for the album disappeared somewhere around month 5. You could tell the band basically didn't care by the end. It was very frustrating.

9 times out of 10, having that talk keeps the band from stretching an EP out over 6 months, but every once in a while... Well, some people just don't really seem to acknowledge that other human beings exist and will do whatever they want no matter what.

 

[kaomao]

Thanks guys really appreciated as always!
It's time to move on with a different way of working!

 

[TRUIE]

Ideally, follow as many of these rules as you can:

• 
  charge per hour, day, or session. not per project

• 
  never work for time you haven't already been paid for or...
  

• 
  ...at least never give them ANY music until all balances have been paid
  

Clients that can't follow these requests are not serious clients. Also, holding on to music is a very good "fire under their ass" as far as getting you paid. They want to hear that shit so badly, and if paying is what's keeping them from hearing their first mixes, then they will always pay. This is not unethical, it's common sense.

There is nothing keeping them from taking their first mix, and putting it online (unless you want to go through the bullshit of putting beeps in their music, which is pointless if you follow these guidelines). I know you don't do this full time, but these are basic rules I would follow even if I were only doing this for 10 hours per week on the side.

Hope that helps!

Does this apply only to local bands, that can chime in and do mix revisions with you ?
If so, I can see how you can do all the job without giving them any files until they pay you.

But how do you manage these kind of things whith mixing/mastering jobs only, with clients that are not necessarily locals ?
I find it hard to be efficient without sending full mixes to the band, and even if they pay a certain % upfront, how to be sure they'll pay the other part when done ?

 

[kaomao]

Does this apply only to local bands, that can chime in and do mix revisions with you ?
If so, I can see how you can do all the job without giving them any files until they pay you.

But how do you manage these kind of things whith mixing/mastering jobs only, with clients that are not necessarily locals ?
I find it hard to be efficient without sending full mixes to the band, and even if they pay a certain % upfront, how to be sure they'll pay the other part when done ?

Yeah I was thinking about that as well, how do you manage "online" work?

 

[mva801]

^^^ Get a deposit at least. 50% now, 50% on delivery of final tracks. Otherwise what Brian said about charging per day or session is spot on. Treat it like a business. You don't go into a movie theatre expecting to pay halfway through or two weeks after you've seen the movie. You pay the fucking money up front. Musicians need to have this kind of attitude with studios/ engineers. I simply don't work with bands who can't pay daily/ hourly.

FWIW In my 6 or 7 years of doing this professionally, only one client didn't pay me. He wrote a check that bounced, but the rest of the band were horrified and settled up with me the second they found out. Most clients are very forthright and fair, it's your job to put that energy out front and weed out the bad ones.

 

[brianhood]

Yeah I was thinking about that as well, how do you manage "online" work?

This is actually about 80% of my projects, and this falls under the category of "I don't do work that I haven't been paid for in advance".

When I send a pricing quote to a band for a mixing project, I add this at the end of the message

"I schedule mixing projects just like I do for bands that are tracking here, so a 50% non refundable deposit is required to book the mixing dates on my calendar, and the rest is due on the first scheduled day of mixing."

That last line is especially important. The bands usually send the payment along with the session files. If they don't, then I send them a gentle reminder. If I get any pushback, I refer to the email I sent to them with that line.

One thing to note: If it's a mixing or mastering project with 3 or more songs, I'll sometimes mix 1 song as a "test mix" to get the overall sound sorted before I mix everything else. I usually have no problem sending this test mix before I get their remaining balance, because the deposit more than covers the cost of mixing that first track. Then, before I send the rest of the songs, I'll require the remaining balance to be paid.

With label projects, it's a bit different. I still require a deposit, but I'll send mixes and do revisions until everyone is happy, but I won't send the final master until I've been paid.

 

[kaomao]

Thanks! good points about sending out mixes!
You don't really know how much I appreciate talking with ya guys!
It's like being at a psychologist !

 

[greyskull]

Oh the fun of getting money out of labels....

 

[kaomao]

Oh the fun of getting money out of labels....

Yeah I remember Andy saying the same thing as well