I'd forgotten about this review.

[Occam's Razor]

I had to make some investigations for my German studies about the language of the Reichskulturkammer where I found out that it was basically life-endangering to listen to those composers and Jazz/Swing, respectively to play this music, only if you were Jewish. There were actually no "fans" conducted into concentration camps...and as for Jazz in particular, the nazis did not have that under control and had to make various concessions not to irk the people who liked it (among them surprisingly many SA/SS-people).

So do not imagine a great "inquisition" on the musical field the way it was concerning race and ethnicity, or other art and literature to a minor degree.

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

Which is my point exactly; fascism has no history of systematically targeting artists or fans of artists. It certainly frowned upon, but rarely actively supressed "deviant" art (despite the aestheticization of political expression implicit in fascism). That kind of thing is much more typical of Communist regimes with their fanatically anti-elitist egalitarianism.

 

[BenMech]

I'm still confused by BOTH your PoVs.

Not by Jim's, btw

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

What, specifically, do you find confusing?

 

[Occam's Razor]

My pov is definitely: despising anything fascistic, totalitarian, repression and murder based on race and ethnicity.

What confounds me is that obviously, some of these people seem to be not that stupid at all, so this is why I am disussing with them.

I wonder though, how one can support nazi-ideas with such knowledge and especially, with a liking for music and art.

 

[Occam's Razor]

That kind of thing is much more typical of Communist regimes with their fanatically anti-elitist egalitarianism.

You like throwing around smart catchwords here, but Communism, while maybe controlling the content of art, invested strongly into education of artists (painters, musicians) in their respective craftm while "the West" neglected that, in particular observable throughout the Cold War period. I still see a discrepancy nowadays between musicians from the former western and eastern parts of Germany (take the primitive Thrash of Sodom and Kreator on the one and then the technicality and originality of Depressive Age), but also Europe in general; Poland has always brought forth strong musicianship. The individuality of what we hear today in some of those bands from beyond the Iron Curtain is a result of their seclusion from "our" culture.
Things like Rammstein may appear typically German for you, but I believe they would not sound that way if they had been musically socialized in Western Germany back then - the same for the medieval rock bands that mostly come from beyond the Berlin Wall (In Extremo, Inchtabotakable, Subway To Sally).

But even in earlier times, the western countries did not compete with what came from the east: Mussorgsky's works, for example, were simplified harmonically for "western" use, as they were not understood and deemed discordant, too complicated and insulting to the ear.

Your left/evil-right/good does not equate as easily as you'd like it to...

 

[BenMech]

What, specifically, do you find confusing?

In condemning NS BM: you attacked the method of NS's madness instead of saying that the madness was in itself harmful/violent/wrong.

Which of course leads me to suspect, you don't disagree with their conclusions, only their designs to carry out their conclusions

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

You like throwing around smart catchwords here, but Communism, while maybe controlling the content of art, invested strongly into education of artists (painters, musicians) in their respective craftm while "the West" neglected that, in particular observable throughout the Cold War period.

That's because the commies demanded the forced integration of artists into their propaganda machine. In particlar, this meant slavish adherence to the godawful kitsch of "socialist realism" in the visual arts and early modernist forms in music, both of which demanded considerable technical skill (if little in the way of creativity or imagination, which weren't desired by the Reds anyway).

I still see a discrepancy nowadays between musicians from the former western and eastern parts of Germany (take the primitive Thrash of Sodom and Kreator on the one and then the technicality and originality of Depressive Age)

And yet, Kreator and Sodom both were innovators at a structural level to a degree that also-rans like Depressive Age never managed. What you really describe here is the much greater penetration of Western Europe by hardcore and the consequent emphasis on purity of expression and nihilistic minimalism. Eastern Europe made the leap from Maiden/Priest to speed and death metal without the intervening period of development characterized by borrowings from hardcore

but also Europe in general; Poland has always brought forth strong musicianship.

My experience with Polish music has largely been through black metal, so I can't really comment on the technical quality of instrumentation. Their death metal scene is notable for a stunning lack of originality (and for basically making the first few Morbid Angel and Malevolent Creation albums over and over again, just with suspect English).

Besides, credit where it is due and all that jazz, the vast majority of the technical wizards in metal have come from the US and Canada.

The individuality of what we hear today in some of those bands from beyond the Iron Curtain is a result of their seclusion from "our" culture.

I don't disagree, but it should be noted that most of these bands are also associated with National Socialism to one degree or another. I wasn't attacking Eastern Europe, but rather pointing out that it's political system far outstripped the Nazis in the suppression of art and the persecution of artists.

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

In condemning NS BM: you attacked the method of NS's madness instead of saying that the madness was in itself harmful/violent/wrong.

Moralism has no place in metal. If you want to be a hippie, go listen to Phish. My interest is in music as art, I really couldn't care less about an artist's political persuasion when he refrains from trying to bludgeon you with propaganda disguised as "art."

 

[Occam's Razor]

The nazis did not persecute unwanted art because they had other problems at their backs, especially towards the end.

What I see through your argumentation is only that by using the vocabulary typical for your kind, you put down communism and try to prettify the nazi-regime...and - to go beyond that art-thing for a moment - don't start to weigh the victims of both ideolgical blocks during and after WWII against one another. The whole concept of the holocaust and euthanasia is unmatched in its perversity and thus justly condemned as the most abominable crime in human history - way before gulags, or other occurences of attemptted genocide.

About moralism in art: somebody said that all art is rather moral...in the sense that art is an expression of the human soul, so this meaning of "moral" is not synonymous with "moralizing".

Metal is certainly not about moralizing, but what you refer to as hippie-music is also not necessarily about that. That period had its artists as well that only wanted their music to speak for itself.
Also, the assumption that metal is not about moralism does not imply that it should definitely be immoral. That would also contradict your earlier claim of nihilism in metal: if it's nihilistic, it is ambiguous about morals.

Oh, and while I'm located close to Karl Marx' birth-place, I'm surely no "commie" - I just don't share these paranoid red-scare-views and black-white-simplifications which especially the US have fed their citizens over the years.

I think this thread has really gone far out by now...I'm actually quite sick of justifying the pleasure I have for a certain type of music just because others confuse it with ideological propaganda. If I need to pull out the Bible, "Mein Kampf", "Das Kommunistische Manifest" or "The world according to Varg" before I am allowed to like music, then I'll quit.

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

The nazis did not persecute unwanted art because they had other problems at their backs, especially towards the end.

And yet they devoted enormous time and resources to exterminating a presumably harmless population, which makes it clear that they could have and would have targeted artists had it been their inclination. You're giving a lot of credit for rationality to a regime with a noted penchant for irrational action.

What I see through your argumentation is only that by using the vocabulary typical for your kind, you put down communism and try to prettify the nazi-regime...and - to go beyond that art-thing for a moment - don't start to weigh the victims of both ideolgical blocks during and after WWII against one another. The whole concept of the holocaust and euthanasia is unmatched in its perversity and thus justly condemned as the most abominable crime in human history - way before gulags, or other occurences of attemptted genocide.

Why? Why is it "worse" to kill people because of their ethnicity than say, because you don't like what they believe or because they resist men who wish to attain absolute power. What is fundamentally more "perverse" about the Holocaust than butchering 70 million people purely to expand the personal power of one man (Mao Zedong), how about 30 million to assuage the paranoia of Stalin? Genocide is genocide is genocide, there aren't degrees of evil involved. You can't justify the judgment you've made on the basis of actual crimes committed, nor by any objective measure, but only by artificially deeming some motives "worse" than others, which is pure bullshit. It's not based on anything real, but purely on an appeal to symbolism and arbitrary value judgments. In other words, it is insanity.

About moralism in art: somebody said that all art is rather moral...in the sense that art is an expression of the human soul, so this meaning of "moral" is not synonymous with "moralizing".

Demanding that artists meet arbitrary standards of moral and ideological fitness to have their works evaluated honestly, on the other hand, is moralizing.

Metal is certainly not about moralizing, but what you refer to as hippie-music is also not necessarily about that. That period had its artists as well that only wanted their music to speak for itself.

You're missing the point. Dispensing with arbitrary value judgments is fundamental to value system of metal. Part of what defines it as a genre is its willingness to suspend moral judgment in favor of experiencing the world as it is and developing new values from that experience.

The underlying belief structure that informed (and continues to inform) "hippie" rock was and is fundamentally rooted in a moral rather than a functional view of the world. Assumptions of "good" and "evil" are inherent part of this form of music. If you have a need to reduce everything to symbolic opposites, then perhaps metal isn't really for you.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Why? Why is it "worse" to kill people because of their ethnicity than say, because you don't like what they believe or because they resist men who wish to attain absolute power. What is fundamentally more "perverse" about the Holocaust than butchering 70 million people purely to expand the personal power of one man (Mao Zedong), how about 30 million to assuage the paranoia of Stalin? Genocide is genocide is genocide, there aren't degrees of evil involved. You can't justify the judgment you've made on the basis of actual crimes committed, nor by any objective measure, but only by artificially deeming some motives "worse" than others, which is pure bullshit. It's not based on anything real, but purely on an appeal to symbolism and arbitrary value judgments. In other words, it is insanity.
Demanding that artists meet arbitrary standards of moral and ideological fitness to have their works evaluated honestly, on the other hand, is moralizing.
You're missing the point. Dispensing with arbitrary value judgments is fundamental to value system of metal. Part of what defines it as a genre is its willingness to suspend moral judgment in favor of experiencing the world as it is and developing new values from that experience.
The underlying belief structure that informed (and continues to inform) "hippie" rock was and is fundamentally rooted in a moral rather than a functional view of the world. Assumptions of "good" and "evil" are inherent part of this form of music. If you have a need to reduce everything to symbolic opposites, then perhaps metal isn't really for you.

Of course, genocide is genocide, but again, it does not make the deeds of the nazis any better that others have done similar things. Still, their organization of the whole affair and the way they set it up obvious for the allies without anybody wanting to interfere at first remains unchallenged.

If you appropriately call it insanity, then, from your signature, I assume you support that insanity.

Then, dispensing of values does not mean dispensing morals. Metal is about revealing hypocrisy and the shady morals established, so the assumption is that it has a moral of its own considered better than that of the mass.

The concepts of good and evil have also always been a part of metal.With all your generalizations of genres, you proove that you bought well into what the music media tells you about them. It is not always that easy: opening a drawer and attributing some smartass substantives to things.

Just as you pump up yourself with an intellectual aura to justify your political views, you interpret more into metal than it is.

Indeed, if metal means ingesting half a library of ideological claptrap, it is not for me. But that is not so, so I'm fine.

Your view of metal is a misconception based on your primat of "art".
Vomit against the wall, make a frame around it and you will have your art.

 

[BenMech]

So Laeth, Tell me about Armenia's arguments with Turkey.

Btw, all European metal fans with Scottish and or Irish last names will be shot, raped, skinned, poisoned, beaten, lit on fire, decapitated, and have all their identities erased from historical record, tomorrow night. They will be awakened from their sleep and pushed into dirty trains filled with disease, and no circulation. They will be destroyed JUST because they were European with Scottish or Irish last names, not because of anything they DID.
OKAY? How d'ya like them apples?
Ya don't like that scary idea, DO YOU???????

I don't care. You won't be missed.

 

[Occam's Razor]

So Laeth, Tell me about Armenia's arguments with Turkey.

Btw, all European metal fans with Scottish and or Irish last names will be shot, raped, skinned, poisoned, beaten, lit on fire, decapitated, and have all their identities erased from historical record, tomorrow night. They will be awakened from their sleep and pushed into dirty trains filled with disease, and no circulation. They will be destroyed JUST because they were European with Scottish or Irish last names, not because of anything they DID.
OKAY? How d'ya like them apples?
Ya don't like that scary idea, DO YOU???????

I don't care. You won't be missed.

he legitimizes it as "insanity", or maybe it's also "art"?

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

Of course, genocide is genocide, but again, it does not make the deeds of the nazis any better that others have done similar things.

Who said they did? I just challenged your silly assertion that "we" would be the first to go under some hypothetical future fascist dictatorship, despite the fact that most current neo-fascists are drawn from extreme music communities and the fact that past fascist regimes showed little inclination

If you appropriately call it insanity, then, from your signature, I assume you support that insanity.

You misunderstand. "Insanity" is what occurs when you divorce judgment from reality (for instance, when you create arbitrary levels of "evil" to differentiate between actions that are functionally the same).

Then, dispensing of values does not mean dispensing morals.

"Morals" are a particular kind of values. You can't dispense with one without dispensing with the other.

Metal is about revealing hypocrisy and the shady morals established, so the assumption is that it has a moral of its own considered better than that of the mass.

Revealing the hypocrisy of moral values is an attack upon those values, not an assertion of them.

The concepts of good and evil have also always been a part of metal.

Metal has always played with value signs, but only as a means of subverting them. Metal inverts moral values to show their meaninglessness.

Your view of metal is a misconception based on your primat of "art".
Vomit against the wall, make a frame around it and you will have your art.

"Art" lies in having something to say. Vomit on the wall is novelty, not art (Opeth, if you will).

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

Btw, all European metal fans with Scottish and or Irish last names will be shot, raped, skinned, poisoned, beaten, lit on fire, decapitated, and have all their identities erased from historical record, tomorrow night. They will be awakened from their sleep and pushed into dirty trains filled with disease, and no circulation. They will be destroyed JUST because they were European with Scottish or Irish last names, not because of anything they DID.
OKAY? How d'ya like them apples?
Ya don't like that scary idea, DO YOU???????

I don't care. You won't be missed.

In the course of debate, one is typically expected to bring up something we like to call an "argument." You have failed to do this, so I'm afraid I must ask you to but the fuck out of the discussion your betters are having. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Who said they did? I just challenged your silly assertion that "we" would be the first to go under some hypothetical future fascist dictatorship, despite the fact that most current neo-fascists are drawn from extreme music communities and the fact that past fascist regimes showed little inclination )

bollocks - extreme music is only a tool to lure people like you into that direction. You think you think for yourselves, but actually are the puppets for some old incorrigibles that are stuck in '39 or so...

You misunderstand. "Insanity" is what occurs when you divorce judgment from reality (for instance, when you create arbitrary levels of "evil" to differentiate between actions that are functionally the same).
"Morals" are a particular kind of values. You can't dispense with one without dispensing with the other.
Revealing the hypocrisy of moral values is an attack upon those values, not an assertion of them.

Blahblah...Have you actually realized that you try to strengthen your point here all the time only with definitions you make up by yourself? Typical for your kind: take away that verbose pomp and wannabe fundamental knowledge (read "Mein K(r)ampf", or Steward-Chamberlain, eh?), and you have a nice void.

Your other "arguments" consist of insulting people and accusing them of being not metal or advising them to shut up...very eloquent indeed.

Metal has always played with value signs, but only as a means of subverting them. Metal inverts moral values to show their meaninglessness.

but racist pigs obviously have very "meaningful" values - where else if not from values (even if bluntly inverted ones) should your resentment of Jews stem from?...without values, you'd be an anarchist, i.e. somebody opposing the idea of any organized (totalitarian) state.

"Art" lies in having something to say. Vomit on the wall is novelty, not art (Opeth, if you will).

"All art is quite useless" - another saying worth discussing...
What has little Grishnakh to say that legitimizes his mostly vain attempts at creating significant music as art, as opposed to Akerfeldt's stuff? - Opeth's lyrical topics may be fantasy and escapism, but at least not a mixture of teenage angst, Tolkien-thievery and delusions of Germanic Grandeur.

You should spend your time with fellow-harebrains dreaming about the Eternal Reich...everybody needs something to keep the carrot dangling before their eyes, don't they? - even if there's a plank nailed onto their foreheads...But what else can you do as long as excellence is possible only through birth into the "proper" race, but unfortunately for you, the thinking part of our species doesn't share that view...?

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

bollocks - extreme music is only a tool to lure people like you into that direction.

Whether music is used as a recruitment tool or not is immaterial, the fact remains that the rank-and-file of the various neo-fascist movements is drawn largely from extreme music related subcultures

You think you think for yourselves, but actually are the puppets for some old incorrigibles that are stuck in '39 or so...

I'm not as familiar with the situation in Europe, but this isn't really the case in the US, where much of the radical right's leadership is drawn from people 35 and under who came to neo-fascism via skinhead groups. The prior generation of racial activists is mostly dead (William Pierce) or associated with non-fascist strains of racial nationalism (usually of a libertarian/survivalist type).

Blahblah...Have you actually realized that you try to strengthen your point here all the time only with definitions you make up by yourself?

This isn't something I "made up," the operative definition of insanity has always revolved aroud the relationship (or lack thereof) with reality. When we talk about "insanity," the implication is always one of viewpoints or actions which are out of touch with the actual nature of reality. The schizophrenic isn't insane because he hears voices in his head, he is insane because he can't distinguish between the voices in his head and reality. When you step beyond reality to make judgments, you step, however temporarily, into insanity.

Your other "arguments" consist of insulting people and accusing them of being not metal or advising them to shut up...very eloquent indeed.

Not at all, I suggested that someone who wasn't contributing to the discussion butt out so that those of us actually engaged in making points can continue to do so without having to step around the clutter and that, if he wasn't comfortable with amorality in artistic expression, maybe he ought to find a genre where amorality isn't an inherent part of its nature.

but racist pigs obviously have very "meaningful" values - where else if not from values (even if bluntly inverted ones) should your resentment of Jews stem from?...without values, you'd be an anarchist, i.e. somebody opposing the idea of any organized (totalitarian) state.

Again, you've clearly missed the point. Let's go back to the original statement, shall we?

Dispensing with arbitrary value judgments is fundamental to value system of metal. Part of what defines it as a genre is its willingness to suspend moral judgment in favor of experiencing the world as it is and developing new values from that experience.

The discussion was never about having no values but rather concerned metal's rejection of arbitrary received values in favor of deriving its own values from the investigation of reality.

"All art is quite useless" - another saying worth discussing...

Not really, since it rests on the assumption of some absolute basis for utility.

What has little Grishnakh to say that legitimizes his mostly vain attempts at creating significant music as art, as opposed to Akerfeldt's stuff? - Opeth's lyrical topics may be fantasy and escapism, but at least not a mixture of teenage angst, Tolkien-thievery and delusions of Germanic Grandeur.

"Det som engang var" is probably the most profound lyrical statement to emerge from metal (not to mention its most powerful musical expression), and the power, passion, originality and genius of the music speaks for itself (unlike Opeth's mix of incoherence and blatant rip off of previous generations of prog rock).

You should spend your time with fellow-harebrains dreaming about the Eternal Reich...everybody needs something to keep the carrot dangling before their eyes, don't they? - even if there's a plank nailed onto their foreheads...But what else can you do as long as excellence is possible only through birth into the "proper" race, but unfortunately for you, the thinking part of our species doesn't share that view...?

Yawn. You seem to spend a lot of time putting words in my mouth and not much actually paying attention to the arguments you supposedly are responding to. When you're reached a point where you are mature enough not to engage in blatant straw man attacks, maybe we'll have something to talk about. Until then, hail victory and all that jazz.

 

[BenMech]

In the course of debate, one is typically expected to bring up something we like to call an "argument." You have failed to do this, so I'm afraid I must ask you to but the fuck out of the discussion your betters are having. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

Sorry to burst your self-importance. This is Jim Raggi's forum at UM. Jim is a friend of mine. He brought up the topic, mocking the press release with Grand Belial's Key's probably awful Nazimetal album. I have opinions about it, Which CLEARLY conflict with yours. Jim invites my opinions, quite often. I don't remember when he asked for yours.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Whether music is used as a recruitment tool or not is immaterial, the fact remains that the rank-and-file of the various neo-fascist movements is drawn largely from extreme music related subcultures

Does that justify the afiliation of a metal-fan with neo-facsism?...Stll two opposites for me,sorry...

I'm not as familiar with the situation in Europe, but this isn't really the case in the US, where much of the radical right's leadership is drawn from people 35 and under who came to neo-fascism via skinhead groups. The prior generation of racial activists is mostly dead (William Pierce) or associated with non-fascist strains of racial nationalism (usually of a libertarian/survivalist type).

So what? - they function only in groups...sheep they are.

not at all, I suggested that someone who wasn't contributing to the discussion butt out so that those of us actually engaged in making points can continue to do so without having to step around the clutter and that, if he wasn't comfortable with amorality in artistic expression, maybe he ought to find a genre where amorality isn't an inherent part of its nature.

Ever considered that this form of amorality can't be appreciated by some, i.e. people with reason, or even more the victims and their descendants?

The discussion was never about having no values but rather concerned metal's rejection of arbitrary received values in favor of deriving its own values from the investigation of reality.

and facsist values are of course the first metal comes across when it faces reality? - not all metalheads are as idiotic gladly...

"Det som engang var" is probably the most profound lyrical statement to emerge from metal (not to mention its most powerful musical expression), and the power, passion, originality and genius of the music speaks for itself (unlike Opeth's mix of incoherence and blatant rip off of previous generations of prog rock).

Ever read Martin Walkyier? - Apart from the subjective quality of musical taste (so I cannot criticize you for your bad one), Vikernes probably knew three chords, which makes it easier to be coherent.

Yawn. You seem to spend a lot of time putting words in my mouth and not much actually paying attention to the arguments you supposedly are responding to. When you're reached a point where you are mature enough not to engage in blatant straw man attacks, maybe we'll have something to talk about. Until then, hail victory and all that jazz.

Do you consider a person that fears and thus hates other cultures and giveas himself an intellectual air mature?