I'd forgotten about this review.

[Laeth MacLaurie]

Sorry to burst your self-importance. This is Jim Raggi's forum at UM. Jim is a friend of mine. He brought up the topic, mocking the press release with Grand Belial's Key's probably awful Nazimetal album. I have opinions about it, Which CLEARLY conflict with yours. Jim invites my opinions, quite often. I don't remember when he asked for yours.

How wonderful for you. Again, I will ask you to either contribute to the discussion or stop cluttering it up for your betters.

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

Does that justify the afiliation of a metal-fan with neo-facsism?...Stll two opposites for me,sorry...

Metal has always had an inherent affiliation with some of the underlying ideas of fascism (particularly the Nietzschean elements). Some bands make this more explicit than others. And some stupidly try to substitute fascism for actual artistic expression (NSBM), these are, as I said, creators of propaganda, and not worth wasting time on.

So what? - they function only in groups...sheep they are.

Let's see, on one hand, we've got you demanding that metal conform to what the dominant society views as acceptable discourse, and on the other, people who refuse to be constrained by arbitrary moral standards. Who is the 'sheep' again?

Ever considered that this form of amorality can't be appreciated by some, i.e. people with reason, or even more the victims and their descendants?

Great. Ever considered that they have the option to, you know, listen to something they don't find offensive?

and facsist values are of course the first metal comes across when it faces reality?

Once you strip away the taboos and the arbitrary moralizing bullshit, what you're left with is the Will to Power, which is the cornerstone of fascist ideology.

Ever read Martin Walkyier

Puns are the lowest form of humor, and adding a violin to unoriginal music doesn't make it original, it just makes it gimmicky.

That said, The Answer Machine? is a pretty decent folk rock album. Their metal material sucks hind teat, however.

Do you consider a person that fears and thus hates other cultures and giveas himself an intellectual air mature?

I haven't seen any "fear" or "hatred" expressed so far, care to get back to the actual arguments, or are you still off battling strawmen?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Metal has always had an inherent affiliation with some of the underlying ideas of fascism (particularly the Nietzschean elements). Some bands make this more explicit than others. And some stupidly try to substitute fascism for actual artistic expression (NSBM), these are, as I said, creators of propaganda, and not worth wasting time on.

But Nietzsche does not imply facism automatically. Since Nietzsche was an inspiration to the fascists, but not one himself - especially not in the nazi-sense.
Nietzschean ideas are generally manifest throughout all musical styles ("Also sprach Zarathustra", etc.) and if you restrict them only to what the nazis used to meet their own ends, you don't know the diversity of Nietzsche's work (neither do I, in all honesty, but I am aware of it).
That he was not quite a a sane person makes him a suitable source for artists to draw inspiration from, so nothing new and special to metal here - and no justification of nazism in metal.

Let's see, on one hand, we've got you demanding that metal conform to what the dominant society views as acceptable discourse, and on the other, people who refuse to be constrained by arbitrary moral standards. Who is the 'sheep' again?

I don't claim to have metal or art conform, but the question is: how far should art go? If artists are toying with fascist-imagery or -content, they want to provoke reactions for the most part and get attention. The examples in the history of music/art in general are endless, hackneyed by now and should therefore not shock anybody anymore nowadays.
What I meant was that you insult the people affected by the holocaust with this provocation already, but even more when it becomes an overt, serious attack. If art is meaningful, then what meaning has reviving the faux glory of an Aryan race and telling Jews to die in the 21st century. Shouldn't art learn from history?

Great. Ever considered that they have the option to, you know, listen to something they don't find offensive??

You reserve metal for the white non-Jewish boys, just as some of your predecessors have stolen the blues from the blacks and made rock'n'roll their monopoly. That is cultural fascism, but not metal. Metal maybe offends established systems, but does not shoot at the outcast and victims of such systems...

Once you strip away the taboos and the arbitrary moralizing bullshit, what you're left with is the Will to Power, which is the cornerstone of fascist ideology.?

Yes, so what?

Puns are the lowest form of humor, and adding a violin to unoriginal music doesn't make it original, it just makes it gimmicky.
That said, The Answer Machine? is a pretty decent folk rock album. Their metal material sucks hind teat, however.?

Your opinion, but what band sounds like Skyclad, since they are so unoriginal to you? To refer to your dearest Burzum again: Vikernes' music is surely original and hardly emulated today, but that lies within his petty musical abilities. He was indeed able to create something out of hardly anything, yet the success of these compositional attempts is equaly meagre, at least to me. This dilettante-approach has already made the music of Can unique, not to say I enjoy it very much.
Anyway - in pointing to Skyclad, I did not refer to their music primarily, but to the lyrics, that are far superior to the emo-esoteric-Nordic humbug you refer to. Still, if you can connect with that more than with meaningful and well thought out texts, go with it.

I haven't seen any "fear" or "hatred" expressed so far, care to get back to the actual arguments, or are you still off battling strawmen?

What else motivates the urge to put Jews into concentration camps other than that?

 

[Laeth MacLaurie]

But Nietzsche does not imply facism automatically. Since Nietzsche was an inspiration to the fascists, but not one himself - especially not in the nazi-sense.

Nietzsche was a philosopher, not a politician. His interest lay in the construction of values, not of societies. That said, he was certainly a proto-fascist in that the values he arrived at were essentially the values of the fascist state (particularly as constructed in German fascism).

Nietzschean ideas are generally manifest throughout all musical styles ("Also sprach Zarathustra", etc.)

Composed by a card carrying member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party...

and if you restrict them only to what the nazis used to meet their own ends, you don't know the diversity of Nietzsche's work (neither do I, in all honesty, but I am aware of it).

Certainly Nietzsche was more than just a proto-fascist, but that doesn't alter the fact that Fascism was a permutation of Nietzschean idealism.

That he was not quite a a sane person makes him a suitable source for artists to draw inspiration from, so nothing new and special to metal here - and no justification of nazism in metal.

And here your own incipient totalitarianism is laid bear. Why should artists have to "justify" the inclusion of their ideals in their work? To satisfy your need for moral absolutism? Fuck off, asshole. Don't like it? Listen to something else. It's not a difficult concept.

I don't claim to have metal or art conform, but the question is: how far should art go?

When did we get to the point where we decide where art "should" go? You complain about fascism, but your own ideas are fundamentally totalitarian as well. You're sitting around judging art, not on the basis of its quality, but of whether it meets arbitrary standards of moral and political acceptability.

If artists are toying with fascist-imagery or -content, they want to provoke reactions for the most part and get attention.

I would agree that propagandistic art (of all stripes) primarily serves this function, but most of the better "fascist" art doesn't address "controversial" topics at all, but rather presents heroic idealism and the warrior ethos as an alternative to the stunted mundanity of the Judeo-Christian/liberal worldview that predominates in our societies. You're proposing that we judge artists, not on the virtues of their work, but on the content of their beliefs, something that cannot be honestly presented as anything but totalitarian.

What I meant was that you insult the people affected by the holocaust with this provocation already,

How do I insult anyone by condemning NSBM as propaganda? Your complaint seems to be that I haven't condemned it for the right reasons, but fuck that. This is art, it isn't killing anyone. I'm not going to condemn people for thinking the "wrong" things when there are more concrete, less emotive reasons for dismissing their work. Your actions make it clear that you aren't interested in evaluating art on its own terms or even in art primarily for its own sake. Your interest is in seeking ideological conformity and you act like spoiled child throwing a tantrum when you don't get it.

You reserve metal for the white non-Jewish boys

Point to where I've done anything of the sort. You can't because I haven't. You medaciously accuse me of advancing arguments that I haven't made. Why? One can only presume this is the result of your complete inability to address the arguments I have made to your satisfaction. But do keep amusing me with your childishness, jr.

just as some of your predecessors have stolen the blues

And blacks stole the blues from the British folk music they encountered in the American South. Do you actually have a point here?

Yes, so what?

So there's always going to be a certain incipient fascism implied by metal.

Your opinion, but what band sounds like Skyclad, since they are so unoriginal to you?

There literally dozens of American and European speed metal (you would call them "thrash", I suppose) bands with very similar sounds, the only unique element is the violin. But that's a gimmick of the purest sort.

He was indeed able to create something out of hardly anything, yet the success of these compositional attempts is equaly meagre, at least to me.

Yes, but we've already established that you are a gullible, tasteless idiot overly impressed with superficial crap like "technicality," so I can safely dismiss your opinion as irrelevant.

Anyway - in pointing to Skyclad, I did not refer to their music primarily, but to the lyrics, that are far superior to the emo-esoteric-Nordic humbug you refer to.

Lefty propaganda + poorly executed attempts at humor will never match the emotional power and intellectual depth of "Det som engang var" or any other serious lyrical content. It's not my fault that you mistake lyrics so self-explanatory and lacking in literary device that even an idiot like you can "get" them for actually being deep. Walkyier is "deep" in the same way that bloggers are "deep," which is to say, not at all. Political sloganeering will never substitute for actually saying something.

What else motivates the urge to put Jews into concentration camps other than that?

Who is seriously urging that? Oh, nevermind, it's just you talking out your ass again.

 

[Jim LotFP]

OK, I brought the subject up and I let it go for a bit, but this has gone far enough. We know where everybody else stands, and if there is any more discussion to be had on this particular subject, there's a private message option on top of the screen here.